Young dependent male children in women's only spaces?

[PrincessTeacake]

Long term lurker here, very infrequent contributer.

Circumstances over the last year have meant I spent most of my very little free time on Tumblr, for convenience's sake, and I fell into the radfem circles there. Every now and then there's a rift in the community over something and it all gets a bit childish because they are mostly young and quite reactionary. I stay out of it for the most part, but I wanted to get some (more sensible) opinions here on the latest rift.

Someone brought up the topic of little boys in women's only spaces (bathrooms, changing rooms, emergency shelters) and there was a lot of talk about how boys can't be trusted under any circumstances, that it was equally as bad as letting intact transwomen in, and naturally some of the mothers in the community got quite upset. There was a lot of anti-child rhetoric being thrown around and some harassment of the mothers.

What's the consensus here? I'm asking mostly for one of my online friends, she was very upset by this discussion and was on the receiving end of quite a bit of the bullying.

What about girls safety though, not immediately, down the line.

We're telling girls they have to put aside their discomfort at male behaviour.

So whe she feels uncomfortable about the man sitting bext to her on the train, or the male relative telling her its ok he's in the room when she gets changed, or the 17 year old lad that wants to walk her home, chances are she'll dismiss any uncomfortable feelings as she's learned they dont matter, and adults have sent the message its ok for boys to be around while she showers or changes.

We may not be putting girls at immediate risk, but we are perpetuating behaviours that put girls at risk in other situations.

Paranoid- It doesnt help re. The trans situation. Women are saying its ok to have boys in womens spaces, with no age limit. So allowing tw in isnt that much of a stretch. Ive seen so many penises in womens change recently, what does a few more matter. If we reclaim womens spaces an enforce under 8's, tw actually have less argument for using those spaces. Because at the minute it appears boys of any age can use them, on their parents say so.

Drseuss. You don't EVER get to silence another woman's opinion.

OK?

Plus we are also teaching boys that it doesnt matter if their behaviour makes girls uncomfortable, they should do it anyway.

Micah, what do women do regarding that very safe place re their home? Do I banish my teenage male child to the shed?

My daughters would be if I did this.

We are also teaching girls that 'I feel uncomfortable' can be used to put boys into a box where they feel like an abuser.

Ok, add non- related males to my post. I did think about specifying, but thought it would be obvious.

Presumably though if your dd is getting changed in her room and doesnt want her 9 year old brother in there while she does it, you remove him?

They have always been private about their bodies. And that included with their same sex sibling. It wasn't something I enforced, all that was taught was not to encroach into other people's personal space. Knock on doors before entering, be respectful of another's wishes. This was ramped up when it was obvious from birth that my son was autistic. Thankfully, he had very early intervention, and is well versed in respecting others boundaries.

And I always took the cue when they expressed a desire to bathe in private.

Most pools are 8. - shools usually start seperate changing for PE in years 4/5 so 8/9 - which is both about the time kids become able enough and some girls start developing. Also old enough to have been taught about what acceptable behaviour from 'strange' ie not know adults and if you havent had a reasonable conversation with your child about this then you should have! I cannt see that its rocket science. The only area for issues is SN and that should be solved by individual leisure centers as all facilities vary.

how disingenuous to suggest i said naked bodies were disgusting - how low do you need to stoop?

plenty of children go through a stage though where they find nudity disturbing and gross and wouldn't want to be surrounded by a roomful of naked strangers on their own without the reassurance of a parent with them.

In my experience separate changing for girls and boys starts at 9/10

My DS is 8.. He is starting to have body changes as are the girls... He goes into different class for PE changing.. He chaanges by himself at the pool... He has a set of rules to follow... Wait for a cubicle if there isn't one..I had to send lifeguard in once as him and his friend had took forever... If we are in the city he comes in with me... No one is naked he has a wee in a cubicle with me.

They are starting to see girls differently.. Though is repulsed still at the thought of kissing a girl... There needs to be a cut off somewhere but as for younger children... They need support of an adult even if they do know how to chnge there clothes

Sports bodies, like netball, say children ten and under must be supervised.

So I'm guessing there are all sorts of risks with a child of eight changing in an adult space alone.

I agree Posie there is a huge risk of them becoming responsible capable children.

How about a quick totally unrepresentative survey ? What age does your leisure center let children 1. Swim alone. And 2 age for boys in changing room and 3. Seperate changing at school ?

It's 8 at our pool. For swimming alone and changing rooms.

Can't remember about school.

School - yr 4 (aged 8-9) change separately.

Can swim alone at 8.

Not sure re changing room age, I'll see if it's online.

School is Yr5
Swimming unsupervised is from 8yrs old
Swimming changing room is unisex

Well, firstly I think there is a huge difference between a mother with three young children getting changed as a family and a man climbing through the window.

This thread has been an eye opener on many levels.

I will have a chat with my son and he will start using the men's. No I'm not comfortable with that on many levels. My preference would be adequate provision of unisex family changing until he is secondary age. That's not going to happen so we will make do.

I also now have an insight as regards the feminism section on mn. I say this as a feminist. Am not sure if I will come back again.

"I also now have an insight as regards the feminism section on mn. I say this as a feminist. Am not sure if I will come back again." Can you say why not?

I think this is getting dragged massively out of proportion - having an 8 year old boy with his mum walk to a cubicle in the ladies changing room will teach girls that their feelings don't matter? Are there actually any girls bothered by this? My 10.5 year old actively chooses to pack a swimming bag with her 8 year old brother meaning she changes with him (and me, and her 5 year old brother) ... both older children could take an individual cubicle, they don't want to... (in separate male/ female changing situations the 8 year old goes into the mens fine, but my 10 year old girl is certainly not ashamed of getting changed for swimming or bothered about small boys being about... then again she has been brought up in Germany where people do seem to make far less of a drama about this, and children do seem to be less frequently segregated by gender...)

I just asked DS (9) if the boys and girls get changed separately for PE at school. He said they do and I asked him why he thought that was. He replied "because boys don't want to look at naked girls".

He's been changing in the male changing rooms at the pool by himself since he was eight. Nobody without SN could be more away with the fairies and easily distracted than him but he still manages takes bloody ages

Boys without additional or special needs should not be in the female changing rooms over the age of eight IMO. If you're not comfortable with them being in the men's changing rooms then campaign for family ones, or campaign for male changing rooms to be safe for boys, but don't insist that women and girls put up and shut up.

I pointed out that at UK primaries kids mostly get changed in the classroom, all together until age 9 or 10.

But our school actually has a proper sports hall used by the community out of hours (including adult sports clubs) so it has boys and girls changing rooms, and the kids can get changed separately from the start in theory. They do usually do that, but then when they did a school play, performed in the sports hall, they separated the changing rooms differently to have costumes in the right places and girls and boys got changed in both rooms...

Swimming unsupervised is from 8yrs old and able to swim 25 meters - non swimmers under 12 have to be accompanied.

Swimming changing room we go to in winter is unisex, all cubicles - however the one we go to in summer has cold concrete single sex changing rooms available but hardly anyone uses them, most people just get changed on the grass (the place is like a park with 4 big outdoor pools), and some people sun bathe topless...

It's 7 at our pool. I know this because a bonkers woman was kicking off because a mother dared to bring her 2 yo son into the women's changing room so they checked.

If some parents feel that the men's changing rooms are not safe for their sons then they need to campaign for more unisex/family changing rooms, not bring their 8+ sons into the women's. Same with transwomen. And I would support their campaign.

"I pointed out that at UK primaries kids mostly get changed in the classroom, all together until age 9 or 10."

Mmm but an informal poll is also illustrative. Have you done supply work?

Tilder, my point was simply to show that we all have to balance out wishes against others in society as your comment about not wanting the needs of others to override yours was kinda odd!

You said yourself you hadn't thought about the feelings of girls of your son's age before, so glad it was eye opening.