Young dependent male children in women's only spaces?

[PrincessTeacake]

Long term lurker here, very infrequent contributer.

Circumstances over the last year have meant I spent most of my very little free time on Tumblr, for convenience's sake, and I fell into the radfem circles there. Every now and then there's a rift in the community over something and it all gets a bit childish because they are mostly young and quite reactionary. I stay out of it for the most part, but I wanted to get some (more sensible) opinions here on the latest rift.

Someone brought up the topic of little boys in women's only spaces (bathrooms, changing rooms, emergency shelters) and there was a lot of talk about how boys can't be trusted under any circumstances, that it was equally as bad as letting intact transwomen in, and naturally some of the mothers in the community got quite upset. There was a lot of anti-child rhetoric being thrown around and some harassment of the mothers.

What's the consensus here? I'm asking mostly for one of my online friends, she was very upset by this discussion and was on the receiving end of quite a bit of the bullying.

Why should 9 year old girls have to share a changing room with him if they aren't comfortable with that?

Why should teenage girls have to share a school room with teenage boys if they are not happy with that?

Most leisure centres now have communal changing rooms. Where I live the male changing room is supervised by a member of staff, yet there will be times when a vulnerable male child will have to go into a woman only changing room.

Personally, I don't like strangers, whether male or female, adult or child, seeing my naked body.

and you know what attitudes like that are maybe a part of what makes masculinity what it is - that you can't have your mum or go with your mum and you SHOULD be a man and go in the man's space on your own now reeks of creating fucked up masculinity.

drseuss do you not remembered being stared at by the creepy man, or flashed at etc as a child? there are other horrible and frightening things that can happen to children than being raped or molested. i remember plenty.

"Why should teenage girls have to share a school room with teenage boys if they are not happy with that?"

Eh? Because they aren't taking their clothes off!!

Honey, not personally.

I take your point but a changing room has a very high chance of not being just one man and one unrelated child, surely?

Exactly honey, by "sexual abuse" I am not just talking about a boy being raped, which some posters seem to be unable (or unwilling) to believe could happen. I'm talking intimidation, exploitation, taking photographs, etc.

Drseuss

Perhaps they feel they are being mentally undressed?

What are the other men in the changing room doing while this offender is taking photographs, flashing, intimidating and exploiting the boy?

Our pool was just refurbished - from a changing village to separate male and female communal rooms. It's a real problem.

DH takes the girls (4 and 7) in the male changing room for their swimming lessons. But next year older girl will need to change in the female one. Which is a crowded, pushy, buggy-filled, noisy space full of mums shoving others out the way to get their little darling changed and out to the next activity. She would rather not swim than cope with this by herself.

What are the other men in the changing room doing while this offender is taking photographs, flashing, intimidating and exploiting the boy?

Is it so hard to believe that there might be times when no-one else is in there?

And that your child doesn't stare doesn't mean girls his age or a bit older aren't unconfortable. There's an extremely low increased risk of a serious incident in the men's changing room for an unaccompanied boy; there's a considerable risk of less serious incidents ie girls being made uncomfortable, boys they know teasing them at school later etc the other way around.

risks get weighed by people all the time, a frequent but less serious risk against a rare but serious. No one would get on a plane if humans didn't do that!

What should the uncomfortable girls do?

Honey we are talking about changing rooms in public swimming pools. Crowded rooms , not lone flashers.

And naked human bodies are not disgusting.

Elendon, thanks for that pointless contribution.

"What are the other men in the changing room doing while this offender is taking photographs, flashing, intimidating and exploiting the boy?

Is it so hard to believe that there might be times when no-one else is in there?"

Well, yes, actually, in my experience of swimming pools!

In the dim and distant past when I had to endure the horror of family swimming trips to the municipal baths I recall part of their lack of appeal was they were always heaving with other people.

I agree with Bertrand and DrSuess . This is getting close to there is a paedophile round every corner.

DrSeuss, I'm not really sure what you're saying. It's OK to place one child at a low risk of a serious, life-changing incident, to save the feelings of others who are at an even lower risk of a similar incident happening in their changing room?

Try taking gender out of it all together. In my job, I deal with some people who pose a low-medium risk of committing serious offences (rape, murder). I also deal with a lot of people who pose a high-very high risk of acquisitive offending (burglary, shoplifting). Which group of offenders do you think sometimes keep me awake at night?

I can't believe you're all still busy castigating small boys for being in women's changing rooms. Jesus Christ haven't we got more urgent and dangerous things to fight against? Like the fact that any grown man with a post pubescent penis can now say he identifes as a woman and is legally entitled to use ALL women's spaces? Not to mention compete in women's sports with a bit of post pubescent hormone tinkering?

Mine too!

Elizabeth, this mum has taken her boy to a practically deserted swimming pool but it just so
Happens that the one other person who is there is a predator on children?

it must be a statistically very low risk, albeit a serious one, compared to other times where children encounter known adults.

Well, yes, actually, in my experience of swimming pools!

It obviously depends where you live then.

To be perfectly honest, I hadn't thought about it at all until this thread. We go swimming as a family, have since he was born. We get changed as a family. I try and get the changing bit done ASAP as tired hungry wet children in a small space is not my favourite thing.

He is prepubescent and would rather get changed in private. So we get changed in private as a family.

I don't have an irrational fear of what might happen if he gets changed by himself in the men's. More I guess that a young boy he is more vulnerable. It's a bit vague really but I guess I see the male locker room type cliché to differ from the family changing that we are used to.

No I hadn't even thought about the other girls. Sorry. Bit about that.

We've just been doing things like this for so long I just hadn't thought. He is growing up and we need to do things differently.

I would be more comfortable leaving it until secondary age as year 4 seems so young. I do feel that this is societal pressure and other peoples needs pushing me to do something before I feel my son is ready though.

Yes women should have a safe refuge. Young boys seem to be ok but what about those between young and teenager? Seems from views on here that they just have to deal with it.

Don't put words like "it's OK" in my mouth, Elizabeth.

By your analogy, why are police bothering to catch burglars? If we only care about serious risks and we have finite resources, why not just chase murderers?

"I do feel that this is societal pressure and other peoples needs pushing me to do something before I feel my son is ready though"

If we live in a society and go out into that society, we have to respect other people's needs. A man might decide to come into the ladies' changing room because it has a window and he needs fresh air or he feels faint. His needs don't get to triumph over the women in the changing room.

paranoiddroid, lots of posters here are on those threads too.

By your analogy, why are police bothering to catch burglars? If we only care about serious risks and we have finite resources, why not just chase murderers?

It's moving that way.

The thing is child sexual abuse is so common there really is a child abuser 'on every corner'.