General Trans thread part 2

[ChiefClerkDrumknott]

Following on from this one General Trans thread
Because I'm not Elsa and can't let it go

Even a quick read of this thread suggest there is a lot of anger. ..
Some examples...

You don't need examples. I told you that we are angry

This "debate" between radical feminism and the trans community is being seen by mainstream as a particularly nasty fight with some issues, risks and fears (on both sides) being deliberately exaggerated.

And who do you think started the fight? I think you'll find some rad fem fears stem from being threatened with death and rape when they bring up objections to some of these 'issues' you glibly dismiss. Do you not think that's an understandable reaction? By the way, have you popped over to Twitter or Tumblr yet to plead with 'TERF' killers to be less aggressive?

As mentioned earlier, I may be completely wrong. Perhaps the best solution is to get even angrier, even more offensive and aggressive...

You know what, as I said we are angry and we are 'aggressive', if you term defending women's rights vocally and loudly and consistently aggressive

This has just annoyed me
www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-transgender-issues/2016/05/13/eca17dbc-177e-11e6-9e16-2e5a123aac62_story.html

In both case 1 and 5 the new laws/rule changes are do new that of course we haven't seen the impact yet. He says "to date, trans athletes have not won a disproportionate number of races.". Of course not, because they haven't yet started competing routinely in the women's categories. Let's see where we are in 5 years time.
Similarly he uses Fallon Fox as an example of a transgender athlete who's faced backlash for competing in the women's event. That would be the Fallon Fox who almost killed her opponent by beating her up in a fight that starkly illustrates the advantage of having a male body.
It's worrying that the media are so unquestioning in what they publish about this.

That article is an example of sheer wilful ignorance isn't it?

For reference: attacks on women & girls by males dressed as women in sex-segregated spaces.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2011/05/28/men-love-the-ladies-restroom-transgender-edition

The Mailonline seem to have a trans article every other day. Today the twist on the article is a Go Fund Me request.

If there is a cohort of 10 transwomen and 10 real woman (for want of a better term) and 5 real woman developed ovarian cancer, would you say 50% of women developed it or 25%?Ok I'm slightly exaggerating but this is the sort of thing which is of real worry to me.

Oh, definitely. That's a problem.

Though I am more concerned about the soaring rate of female criminality, when suddenly transwomen crimes are counted as committed by women.

Invisibling of male violence.

I'm willing to bet when 25% of my example "women" develop prostate cancer there will be no end of funding etc.

Oh, sure. It is just a very clever plot to invisible sexism. After all, if women get prostate cancer too, then it is not sexist to fund that more than, say, ovarian cancer.

Just wanted to share this by Sarah Ditum www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2016/05/what-gender-anyway

Did anyone see that Aoife Assumpta Hart has "changed sides". She now seems to be writing a very negative sounding book about "TERFS". This seems to have been motivated by horrendous experiences with abusive feminists online (as she reports it) and the fact that she feels one of her trans friends ended up taking her own life, partly due to the fact that she was hounded by feminists in the days and weeks leading up to her death. Feminists who just kept telling her over and over again "you're a man". Aoife says that to these feminists the life of the trans woman didn't matter.

This makes me very very sad as Aoife has always seemed intelligent, articulate, warm hearted and likeable and I imagine her friend was a good person too. As a feminist I would never ever want to add to the suffering of a trans person unnecessarily (although with some, it's obviously impossible to make any sort of distinction between male and female anatomy without being accused of transphobia or actual physical violence).

As feminists involved in this debate should we be actively working to object on here every time someone says something that's too close to the bone? There's a fine line between the way people talk when they're legitimately angry and talk that borders on being deeply damaging, both to trans people and to how feminism and the feminist argument is seen.

Also, I've had my eyes opened by various websites documenting violent language and intimidation towards women from segments of the trans community. Are there any websites that document similar behaviour from feminists? It would be useful to understand what kind of experiences your average trans person on twitter for example has when engaging in the debate.

By the way, I have a feeling there was a conversation with someone on here I meant to come back to when I wasn't so busy with work in that I was going to answer a question but now can't remember who asked. Apologies for the inadvertent rudeness. Think it was about dating and men always doing most of the talking.

Aoife was always a nasty misogynist in sheep's clothing. The weird nun fetishism was a giveaway. Some feminists got tired of Aoife's shit and she showed her true colours. Terf, bitch, cunt - what's the difference? To trans activists, they all just mean 'a woman who has the temerity to disagree with me'.

For reference: attacks on women & girls by males dressed as women in sex-segregated spaces.

As soon as a trans woman commits a crime against women, they magically become just a man in a dress who would have committed the crimes regardless of whether or not he was allowed into the female space. No "genuine" trans person would ever do such a thing apparently.

The fact that new laws allow men like this unrestricted access to female spaces to commit acts of voyeurism and assault is lost on many people or they just dont care. The identities of trans women (0.3% of the population) must be validated, no matter what the risk is to women (50% of the population)

singingsixpence82

I think you have misread what Aiofe said (unless we are talking about two entirely different deaths).

she feels one of her trans friends ended up taking her own life, partly due to the fact that she was hounded by feminists in the days and weeks leading up to her death. Feminists who just kept telling her over and over again "you're a man".
The transwoman who died (Jacqueline Andrews) was very much on the gender critical side of the debate. It was herself Jacqueline who Aiofe is accusing of doing the hounding.

This makes me very very sad as Aoife has always seemed intelligent, articulate, warm hearted and likeable and I imagine her friend was a good person too.

Again unless we are talking about a different death they were not friends. Indeed Aoife opens her latest blog post by accusing Jacqueline of attacking her.

This was the first I have heard of her death to be honest. Very sad. I swear I read an article from her on Gender Apostates but it now seems to have vanished.

You're right, I misread the post. I was a bit confused by what she was saying to be fair. I thought I'd read stuff by her that was very pro ("cis") woman.

What happened - what was she doing that made people get tired of her? MrsBruce?

I'll need to look up this Jacqueline Andrews.

Jackie Andrews was very much on our side & from our exchanges on social media, a lovely person.

As soon as a trans woman commits a crime against women, they magically become just a man in a dress who would have committed the crimes regardless of whether or not he was allowed into the female space. No "genuine" trans person would ever do such a thing apparently.

Perhaps we should allow scotsmen into women's spaces, too. I mean, they sometimes wear kilts, and also, No True Scotsman would ever commit a crime. Totally safe! Unless they turn out to be Not True Scotsmen, but since we risk that with the trans, why not risk it with the Scots?

Jacqueline Andrews died suddenly of natural causes. She was much loved by many many women. She had been very supportive to me and I know I wasn't alone in that, I was shocked and saddened by her death, but the outpouring of love to her and her family was lovely to see.

Aoife has done what I was warned she was doing about a year back. I was told that she was gathering evidence for a book she was going to write which wasn't going to be pro-woman. I didn't want to believe it, but the first TERF comments from her confirmed it really. The way she is now crawling around the TAs who are most likely to dox and cause actual harm to women is sickening, but not nearly as sickening as her 'dancing on Jacqueline's grave' post she did on her blog. The delight she felt at JA'a death oozed through every word of it.

So when she said something about just another dead transwoman, was she referring to someone specific?

I've just discovered all the transwomen in sports threads now. I didn't realise things were already so far gone. That boxer who is now fighting as a woman and causing awful injuries. And the fact that iran's female football team is mostly male. I've barely started reading the thread even.

Is there any way of finding out how much support there is for the radfem position in this country? Are these beliefs widespread but silenced or are most people still like me a few weeks ago? Completely unaware of what's going on?

And can I ask if mumsnetters engage in discussion and disagreement on these issues elsewhere online?

Maybe there's a solution. We need a new name for the male and female reproductive system that the whole world accepts. I don't think anyone can argue they can't have names because they obviously do for medical reasons. And then we can derive a new name for women from the term allowed. And use it to make points with until we can reclaim the word "woman"?

Does anyone know where the medical community stands on the issue? Do they realise all of their textbooks are on the verge of being declared rife with transphobia?

That's awful PalmerViolet. Sounds like your quite an active member of the radfem community then?

I've never heard of Aoife Hart before. She doesn't seem to be anyone in particular, so why should anybody mind if she changes her opinion?

She also seems to not have known J.S. Andrews, so I'm not sure why her opinion on Andrew's death is any more relevant than that of any other complete stranger to the deceased.

Sorry, Palmer did not see your post.

Obviously Hart's behaviour will be upsetting to family and friends.

I meant that there is no reason for people in general to listen to Hart's opinion of a person she did not know.

And can I ask if mumsnetters engage in discussion and disagreement on these issues elsewhere online?

I do, well, I did on Twitter, but I've stepped away from Twitter now because the drama and death threats were getting a bit much, once an acquaintance of mine was doxed, that was the final straw.

OTOH, I do discuss these issues with people in real life, most of whom aren't feminists.

Aoife was one of the few transwomen who was on the radfem side of the debate and out about it. She argued against trans ideology.

Seems JA wrote something attacking Aoife before her death.

She knew JSA in the same way as we all knew her. JSA was incredibly generous with her time and support online and had been continuously supportive of Hart before and since her surgery. They and a few others started the gender apostates site and had collaborated on a few articles on there, so, from one perspective, she knew JSA better than most.

If any of that makes sense.

No, Aoife had changed her tune well before JSA wrote her article.

Yeah, I'm not planning on going anywhere near Twitter Palmer. But there are other forums. That's so awful about your acquaintance. Do you think involvement changes peoples' minds? On here the discussion seems to win converts but is that true elsewhere?