Can we have a general Trans thread?

[Brugmansia]

Sorry for another trans thread and I feel this is a bit of an imposition given I don't post really.

Anyway reading FWR over the past few months has re-radicalised me. I've been reading lots here and wider.

Anyway just now been watching TV and there's been some stuff that's given me the rage but didn't seem to fit in existing threads or it's own thread.

Anyway thing that gave me the rage.
On BBC3 program on transgemder teen's the doctor just said "creating a vagina". Are doctors redefining vagina as pocket rather than a passage? Makes me want to screem.

Also Sarah Ditum being no platformed.

Im glad i long ago dealt with being labelled transphobic and vile

Have you got a point all or just trying to shut us down?

Vestal I think what's saddest is that one smallish group I went to with a friend, a specific women-only group, was over half men. They were all transwomen or non-binary men. The transwomen I understood, even if I disagree with the extent of their representation. But the non-binary men looked like men, made no attempt to "present as a woman" (or whatever the phrase is). They just claim they don't identify as a macho masculine dude.

Ok, neither does my dad. He doesn't think that means that he gets to come into women's only spaces and dictate to them (this group was big on voting, which of course they had the advantage in). It felt ridiculous.

So thank fuck Mumsnet isn't somewhere which cows to men's demands.

Abbie, your disappointment or lack of it is by the by: we are supposed to challenge prejudice, bigotry and hatred where we come across it. There are indeed plenty of non transphobic places which prioritise women (although seeing as they don't insist on your criteria of woman being met, I'm sure you'd discount them) and I make good use of some of them. It's very sad that this isn't one.

Sure, hermione. Have you read the thread linking to a DM article on gender reassignment surgery? A lot of the posts in there are prime examples.

Annie, for example, "they really think it makes them real women", and describing their surgeries as mutilation. Do you know anyone who is trans? Such belittling and dismissive language is cruel. It's prejudicial to assume other women in a prison are at risk from a trans woman simple because the latter is trans.

I have to feed the baby and do other stuff but am happy to link many many more examples (much) later on, if it would do any good.

There are trans people in my life, some of whom mean a great deal to me. I am a astonished that this group's attitude to them is so unpleasant.

your criteria of woman being met

I am sad to see the end of free speech and opinion in this country. I am now a terrorist sympathiser too, apparently.

My criteria for woman is adult human female. I don't consider that controversial.

all I have been on the GRS thread. I agree it would make uncomfortable reading for any MTT who has had or is considering the surgery. I do think there are really valid point there that need discussion though - mainly the re categorising of a "vagina" as something whose entire purpose is to be fucked by a penis (when clearly it is so much more than that) as well as the ethics of cutting off healthy body parts, when we don't do that for any other types of body dysphoria, and the long term benefits for mental health are questionable.

But given that thread has only started in the last couple of days, and your comment about "your definition of woman" I suspect you mean th many posters (myself included) who assert that men aren't women, TW are a subset of men and that "woman" isn't a feeling. If you think those are hate speech then so be it.

All, I agree that some comments on that thread are a bit close to the bone.

I am seriously considering submitting a piece to Everyday Feminism on Ways Transpeople Can Support Women! Thoughts?

Don't perpetuate misogynistic stereotypes! The concepts of "female brains" and "gender roles" were invented by men to keep women down! The truth is that the only differences between men and women are down to biology and socialisation, so saying you have a "woman's brain" or "female gender identity" is colluding in our oppression.

Don't appropriate our identity! Woman / female is the biological sex with reproductive potential. If you claim that being "woman" is all down to a feeling, then you're erasing the truth of who we are. It's cool to be trans. It's not cool to intrude on someone else's space.

Respect that there are places it's not appropriate to be if you're biologically male! If you have a penis and feel entitled to enter women's bathrooms, changing rooms and domestic violence shelters, check your privilege. That's your male entitlement talking.

Don't make us waste our energy! Women have a lot to fight for and most of it is tied to our biology - for instance forced marriage, reproductive rights, FGM, universal access to sanpro. If you complain that these important issues are "transphobic" or "cissexist" because you're not included, then you're demanding that campaigners pay attention to you instead of to the women who need your help. Better check your privilege again!

If you remember these four points, you can be a great women's ally!

Empress, your summary is clear and simple but eminently too sensible for Everyday Feminism
besides I don't see a 3 page disclaimer of all your privileges in there

You're trying to be added to the no platformed speakers list, aren't you? Go on then...

You need to check the definition of phobia
l

Empress - fantastic post

Good post empress.

Seeeend it to theeeemmm

It's prejudicial to assume other women in a prison are at risk from a trans woman simple because the latter is trans.

No one assumes that women in prison are at risk from a trans woman because he is trans, we assume they are at risk because he is male.

This is not prejudice after more than 2000 years of males proving that they like to rape women. It is called common sense.

Note the lack of outrage at the fact that trans men are routinely put into women's prisons. No one has a problem with trans people in women's prisons. Only with males.

Do you know anyone who is trans?

Yes, all, I do, including transwomen who say that they are transwomen, not women - and that being a transwoman is absolutely worthy in itself without having to usurp women's space or women's language to describe themselves. They acknowledge their male bodies (even if now modified by surgery) and their male pasts, including their male socialisation, while rejecting their lives and identities as men.

They say "transwomen" isn't a slur, and should not be made into one by insisting on usurping the term "woman" for themselves.

Empress, that's fantastic!

It's prejudicial to assume other women in a prison are at risk from a trans woman simple because the latter is trans.

No one assumes that women in prison are at risk from a trans woman because he is trans, we assume they are at risk because he is male.

This, a thousand times.

I've got little objection to sharing a cell with a trans man prisoner. You know why? That prisoner won't have a male body, male socialisation, or a working dick. I wouldn't particularly be keen on sharing with someone getting regular shots of testosterone, but that's because of the way that drug sometimes alters behaviour, not because of the person it's being injected into. I wouldn't be overly keen on sharing a cell with a prisoner getting shots of any other drug that made them more likely to be aggressive, either.

Why would receiving testosterone make some more aggressive Annie?

From what I've read, it's difficult to determine how aggression and testosterone are linked, because behaving aggressively boosts your testosterone, and it all can get a bit chicken and egg..

www.nature.com/scitable/blog/cognoculture/testosterone_and_human_aggression_or_180520

Why would receiving testosterone make some more aggressive Annie?

I don't know why it would, but men who take artificial hormones to increase muscle growth do become more aggressive.

For testosterone in women, I only know that it increases sex drive in low (woman-appropriate) doses, but it could also lead to a shorter temper.

There is research saying that transmen's violence level is closer to male's than to women's, but this is likely also influenced by the fact that some women victims of childhood sexual abuse transition to male as a way of identifying with the aggressor.

The fact remains that transmen have female socialisation, which makes them less likely to get physically violent even if they have a short temper. They also won't ever put female prisoners at risk of pregnancy.

So men are more aggressive because of their hormones? Are women more emotional because of their hormones?

From what I've read "roid rage" is a myth. All it does is exaggerates your personality.

Not that it matters in terms of this discussion particularly