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Original poster

Becky Watts murder

117 replies

Elendon · 11/11/2015 17:39

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34790804

It seems to me that Matthews was found guilty of murdering Becky and Hoare was found guilty of manslaughter.

Hoare was not present at the killing by all accounts (the killing was within the woods, whilst Hoare was still back at Becky's family home. She was guilty of covering up the murder, but she said that she was controlled by Matthews, and that part of her evidence is also awful.

And what society says that they were a a couple by all accounts when she was 14/15 when they met and he was 22?

Why should women be associated as a murderer just because they happen to be in a dysfunctional relationship with a man who murders?

OP posts:
Mide7 · 12/11/2015 16:29

Undoubtedly there is a correlation Elendon but then there could be a correlation with eating bread or drinking tea as well. Those things don't make people kill people.

IMO it's dangerous to pin all of this epidemic on a single thing. People have been killing each other forever, long before the Internet became so wide spread.

scallopsrgreat · 12/11/2015 16:29

It's a continuum with porn. It is known that that men who use porn (especially violent porn) lose empathy with women. Yes that isn't going to manifest itself in every case to turn them into murderers. But it is never going to be a good thing.

Similar to playing violent video games.

So at one end of the spectrum you have men with sexist views, looking at women as sexual objects rather than full human beings. At the other end you have men becoming sexually violent and murdering.

Joanna Yeats's murderer: another man, in Bristol using violent porn who kills a woman. Just for the record.

scallopsrgreat · 12/11/2015 16:33

"We can't actually say how abusive and controlling the relationship was..." We can actually. We can listen to what he was saying and look at his behaviour. He was kidnapping Becky because he believed she "needed to be taught a lesson". He had an "unhealthy obsession" with teenage girls. He started his relationship with Hoare when she was a teenager and he was much older.

You could believe that all those things are unrelated and really he was a great guy and totally misunderstood or you could piece together a jigsaw of what he was like.

Original poster
Elendon · 12/11/2015 16:33

Well, what is certain is that Matthews engaged a, just, teenager into an unlawful sexual act. What is also certain is that he constantly viewed violent pornography that involved minors.

Anything else, including 'folie a deux' is just speculation.

OP posts:
BarbarianMum · 12/11/2015 16:33

Whilst not pinning all sexual and violent crime (from harrassment upwards) against women on porn, I think it is a huge contributing factor.

scallopsrgreat · 12/11/2015 16:35

Of course the other factor is he strangled a 16 yr old girl and chopped up her body.

But yeah, he wasn't abusive or anything Hmm.

Mide7 · 12/11/2015 17:06

My point is really that to do these horrific things to people I think there has to be something else going on other than liking violent porn( as an example, substitute video games, books, rap music). If these killers didn't watch violent porn then something else would take its place and become just as damaging. You have to be of a certain mind set ( I can't think of a better way to describe it)to do these things. If you've got that mind set then I think any number of things will set you off.

I've played video games for over 20 years, Most of those games have been extremely violent. I've never killed someone, never even really been in a fight. What's stopped me from becoming a killer? A lot of things I'm sure but amongst them are my fairly stable up bringing, the fact that I've had no real significant trauma. I wonder how many sadistic killers can say the same thing.

BarbarianMum · 12/11/2015 17:38

There are always other factors but without the porn (and yes sometimes the gaming) to normalise a world view where women are there to be used, abused and disgarded, I do wonder how often these 'dark seeds' of abuse would lie dormant. I find it pretty hard to believe that anyone could regularly enjoy porn of women being raped, tortured and degraded without it affecting their real life view of women, sexual appitites and relationships.

MyFavouriteClintonisGeorge · 12/11/2015 18:24

I don't believe I said he wasn't abusive. I said we didn't know how abusive or controlling the relationship was (and I completely agree that common sense indicates it was abusive and controlling to some degree).

And yes, my reference to folie a deux was speculation. But then, suggesting Hoare was controlled to the point she should escape some or all responsibility is also a speculation.

Original poster
Elendon · 12/11/2015 18:43

MyFavourite - But then, suggesting Hoare was controlled to the point she should escape some or all responsibility is also a speculation.

Since I've now quoted you could you possible point out where it was was said on this thread that she should escape some or all responsibility?

OP posts:
Original poster
Elendon · 12/11/2015 18:46

All means total, why should Hoare be totally responsible or even be 50% responsible for this crime, riven from a man totally obsessed with teenage girls and who watched violent pornography.

It's obvious Hoare didn't watch this type of violent porn, otherwise her laptop would have indicated this.

OP posts:
Mide7 · 12/11/2015 18:51

Barbarian mum- I suppose it's a chicken and egg type thing. Perhaps people are draw to violent porn because of those dormant seeds.

Also like a lot of things we only tend to hear about these things once something like this has happened. Abit like drug abuse/ use. How regularly do we hear about people who like porn (maybe not really violent stuff) but have no issues with relationships or views of women.

MyFavouriteClintonisGeorge · 12/11/2015 18:52

Why should women be associated as a murderer just because they happen to be in a dysfunctional relationship with a man who murders?

My problem with the headline in my OP link is that both are seen to be killers.

She is not a killer, Matthews is.

A killer she is not.

Original poster
Elendon · 12/11/2015 19:23

I think she should have been convicted of perverting the course of justice and preventing a lawful burial. That's my stance.

Ok?

OP posts:
slugseatlettuce · 12/11/2015 21:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 12/11/2015 21:35

Anyway... back to the feminist discussion of the issues.....

This piece by Sarah Ditum in the New Statesman is really good, using this case to talk about porn and how it's affects are being felt.

slugseatlettuce · 12/11/2015 21:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

VestalVirgin · 12/11/2015 22:03

Porn is however, very relevant in how people even get to have such rape fantasies.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 12/11/2015 22:08

Actually slugs, I wasn't responding to you. Just like the vast majority of people didn't respond to my question right at the beginning. One of the problems of a non-threaded forum, I suppose.

I wasn't aware that Hoare was involved in the killing, I was under the impression that she had been found guilty of manslaughter because she was involved with the kidnap and dismemberment. Either way, she has been rightly found guilty. Unlike one of the men who murdered my friend's mother.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 12/11/2015 22:10

Plus... I think, given the kinds of porn Matthews habitually downloaded and viewed, I'd say that porn is pretty central to the whole case.

slugseatlettuce · 13/11/2015 08:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GloriaSmellens · 13/11/2015 22:05

I can't believe people are making excuses for Shauna Hoare.

By all means, discuss the violent porn aspect of this case. But seriously, infantalising and making excuses for a grown woman who was totally.complicit in this horrific crime is just horrible. As others have said, if she was really totally coerced into doing this against her Will by Matthews, then that is the defence she would have given, not the 'I didn't know anything about it' one. And given how shit and ridiculous that defence was, one can assume that the defence had decided that never in a million years could they convince a jury that she had done this through coercion.

VestalVirgin · 13/11/2015 22:36

GloriaSmellens, she was a grown woman when the crime happened, but she was not when she got into this relationship.

I don't think he coerced her much when she was an adult, but I do think the fact that she was a teenager when she got into a relationship with him means that he influenced the development of her sense of right and wrong.

Where I live, someone of the age of 21 would maybe not even be treated as adult by the court, but as adolescent.

Of course she should go to prison, as whatever she might have been at 15, she was the accomplice in a murder case. Just pointing out that this should be taken into consideration.

cadnowyllt · 13/11/2015 22:37

I've no idea what happened in this case, but in English law, coercion is not a defence to the charge of murder.

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow · 14/11/2015 09:29

The take home for me is that even women at their worst are not as evil as men at their worst. They're usually accomplices and enablers, sick and twisted yes, but not the driving force.

As for finding evidence of an abusive and controlling relationship did you watch the video where he said the poor victim needed to be "taught a lesson" for being a bitch? I mean if that's not the sign of a controlling mind I don't know what is!

None of that excuses her actions I hasten to add and SH should definitely be brought to justice for her heinous actions.