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Original poster

Becky Watts murder

117 replies

Elendon · 11/11/2015 17:39

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34790804

It seems to me that Matthews was found guilty of murdering Becky and Hoare was found guilty of manslaughter.

Hoare was not present at the killing by all accounts (the killing was within the woods, whilst Hoare was still back at Becky's family home. She was guilty of covering up the murder, but she said that she was controlled by Matthews, and that part of her evidence is also awful.

And what society says that they were a a couple by all accounts when she was 14/15 when they met and he was 22?

Why should women be associated as a murderer just because they happen to be in a dysfunctional relationship with a man who murders?

OP posts:
Original poster
Elendon · 11/11/2015 19:57

Cadnow, the person who knocked down my elderly aunt, was convicted of manslaughter. Lack of due care and attention, led to the manslaughter verdict. This person was given a suspended sentence.

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Original poster
Elendon · 11/11/2015 20:01

Cadnow in English law it does. It means there is sufficient doubt that the person premeditated the murder.

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cadnowyllt · 11/11/2015 20:02

Much depends on when that was - there is, these day, an offence of causing death by careless driving.

Had they been driving in a proper manner and - possible - your elderly aunt stepped into the road without looking, then the driver won't have been convicted.

cadnowyllt · 11/11/2015 20:05

Elendon - there is no requirement to prove premeditation to order to get a conviction of murder.

NorthernLurker · 11/11/2015 20:21

I think it's interesting that she hasn't been convicted of murder under joint enterprise given what's in the public domain.

The relationship was clearly abusive and controlling. I think though, that whilst the nature of the relationship explains why she was involved in the situation in the first place, it doesn't necessarily explain why she continued to participate fully in the consequences of the crime. Consequences which are so far derived from 'normal' behaviour and which were so drawn out in duration.

It's an absolutely horrible case and I do agree that the women involved in these cases - Myra Hindley being the premier example - are judged very harshly, more harshly than male partners would be.

From a feminist pov the stand out issue for me is how a use of violent porn was followed by a horrific crime. Miss Watts was treated as a disposable sexual object by her stepbrother. I think we have to keep our focus on that to be honest.

TheWildRumpyPumpus · 11/11/2015 20:26

The judge gave the jury a list of questions to direct their decision in making their verdicts.

Whether they have feminist leanings or not doesn't come into it.

VestalVirgin · 11/11/2015 20:53

NorthernLurker, good point. I didn't know about the violent porn.

As for her participation in disposing of the body ... I think that's easier to explain than the initial involvement, actually. (If there are no other things I'm not aware of?)
The fact that she didn't call the police before the murder may be attributed to either loyalty or fear combined with a lack of moral backbone. After the murder, well, there was a strong incentive to not give him cause to doubt her loyalty.

NotDavidTennant · 11/11/2015 21:09

"As for her participation in disposing of the body ... I think that's easier to explain than the initial involvement, actually. (If there are no other things I'm not aware of?)
The fact that she didn't call the police before the murder may be attributed to either loyalty or fear combined with a lack of moral backbone. After the murder, well, there was a strong incentive to not give him cause to doubt her loyalty."

The problem is that her defence (as far as has been presented in the media) was not that she was coerced or controlled to take part in the crime. Her defence was that she was not involved and knew nothing of what was going in. If she'd admitted involvement but used the first defence then perhaps the outcome might have been different.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 11/11/2015 21:15

Whether they have feminist leanings or not doesn't come into it.

Fair point, but on the feminist section of the forum, it would seem reasonable to discuss it from a feminist point of view, no?

VestalVirgin · 11/11/2015 21:35

NotDavid, I wasn't talking about her defence, but about what I suspect really happened.

The theory that she didn't claim to have been coerced because she knew it wouldn't work seems flawed - there are several factors pointing to her being in an abusive relationship, and it would be hard to disprove any coercion. I am no lawyer, though, maybe women in abusive relationships are treated like rape victims, in which case her lawyer would have advised her to not even try that.

And of course, it is rather the norm for people in abusive relationships to be in denial. No one wants to believe themselves to be weak, so basing her defence on her having been coerced would have harmed her self-image.

Of course she can be in an abusive relationship and still be guilty - the facts I know so far imply that she's seriously messed up in the head. Still, the fact remains that she doesn't seem to have had anything to gain by this murder, which would to me mean she should be convicted of helping a murderer, but not of manslaughter.

TendonQueen · 11/11/2015 21:51

I wouldn't have been surprised at all to see a defence argue that she was coerced. Therefore my guess would be either that her legal team knew about some big hole in that as an argument, or that she insisted on taking the line that she was totally unaware of what happened.

CupofBoo · 11/11/2015 21:54

She fucking helped to dismember a 16 year old girl. She loses any sympathy, any sisterhood.

ASAS · 11/11/2015 22:03

Speaking of the sisterhood, let's remember that Becky's mum, aunties, teachers might be MNers. Some of the language on this thread isn't very mindful of that.

Lightbulbon · 11/11/2015 22:21

IT sounds to me like she had a kind of Stockholm syndrome, having been groomed by a dangerous man as a child.

cadnowyllt · 11/11/2015 23:23

Duress isn't a defence to murder in law. Now it might be mitigation when sentencing - I never did understand tariffs for murder sentences where it's mandatory life sentence - very confusing. But then again she was potted for manslaughter where ther is a wide range of sentencing

AyeAmarok · 11/11/2015 23:37

It's disappointing to come on here and see a thread trying to excuse away the actions of a woman who committed manslaughter (etc) of an innocent 16 year old girl.

Who's the victim here again?

Come on now, this thread is making this forum look silly.

howtorebuild · 12/11/2015 01:40

There is a lot of blaming of Mothers of this pair, going on in the DM article, comments. Hmm Yes I know...

zippey · 12/11/2015 03:40

I think you need to have more sympathy for Becky and her family, than with the perpetrators in this one.

Original poster
Elendon · 12/11/2015 09:41

www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/nov/11/nathan-matthews-case-reignites-debate-over-violent-pornography

Northern Lurker made an excellent point upthread regarding the viewing of violent pornography.

From a feminist pov the stand out issue for me is how a use of violent porn was followed by a horrific crime.

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howtorebuild · 12/11/2015 10:25

Yes even the mail went with the pornography as being an issue.

MrNoseybonk · 12/11/2015 11:33

"It's an absolutely horrible case and I do agree that the women involved in these cases - Myra Hindley being the premier example - are judged very harshly, more harshly than male partners would be."

What? Myra always had a lot of apologists and even campaigns to get her released in a way that Brady has never had.
Sure, plenty of people judged her harshly (righly so), but not worse than Brady.
It might happen, but I don't think in the example you chose.

BarbarianMum · 12/11/2015 13:58

From a feminist pov the stand out issue for me is how a use of violent porn was followed by a horrific crime.

^^This more than anything.

Mide7 · 12/11/2015 14:12

I'm sure it doesn't help but you can't lay all the blame at porns door IMO. Look at the figures in that article, estimated in 2012 that 50000 to 60000 individuals downloaded child abuse images. Why aren't all those individuals going out and abusing, mutilating and murder people? Plenty of people watch all kinds of porn and function "normally".

Whether people are blaming books, games, movies or porn for these horrific acts, I always think that while it doesn't help, if you are that way inclined already anything can set you off.

Original poster
Elendon · 12/11/2015 15:20

Mide, what we do know is that 10% of those men will have murdered their partners, i.e. 600 since 2012.

What is unclear are the statistics surrounding abuse, (I'm not sure what you mean by mutilation - though a fraction would buy a saw to cut up a body) but given that an estimated 80,000 women are raped annually, I would guess that:

a. it is an epidemic

b. this epidemic is swept under the counter

c. there is now an obvious correlation between those who view violent pornography and who go on to murder.

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MyFavouriteClintonisGeorge · 12/11/2015 15:43

Besides that a 22 year old having sex with a 14 year old is considered rape.

No, it isn't, it is considered unlawful sexual intercourse.

We can't actually say how abusive and controlling the relationship was, because not much evidence was led about it. And we can't say that abuse and control were the only or even the main reasons why Hoare participated. It could have been fear, and then again, it could have been that the two of them shared certain proclivities-a folie a deux like the Wests. And it could have been an unholy combination of all sorts of things.

Think about it from a public policy point of view. For very serious offences of sex and violence, is it really desirable to allow people to argue their way out of legal culpability by alleging abuse in any but very extreme circumstances? Surely we all think that people have a responsibility to refrain from those kinds of acts, however difficult that must be, and we reflect this in the law and in sentencing policy?

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