My Transgender Kid

[kua]

Anyone watching? Half way through, quite different kids, though gender stereotypes seem to be a quite strong theme.

A penis isn't just skin.

I've thought a fair amount about what constitutes a penis because I was expected to do so, as is normal in the UK. I was taught what it was and the internal workings of it multiple times in sex education and in science lessons.

And I was expected to be able to draw and label it to pass GCSE exams.

And the same has been expected of my kids.

They have studied it at school and coloured in seminal vesicles, read sex ed books at home and so on.

I think it is completely and utterly normal for everyone to be educated about the human body.

There isn't a right in England to mislead someone you are having sex with as to what genitals you have. There is a right to meaningfully consent to what you are penetrated with.

And perhaps the more obvious point here is that nobody has a right to sex with a non-consenting woman.

There is no right to sex.

I didn't have time to finish my last post. The part of women's sexuality that is being ignored is women's enjoyment of their partner's body, the female gaze. Lily Cade said she was not interested in participating in the orgasm of a male bodied person. How not controversial for a lesbian. Even with a one night stand women might, shock horror, enjoy looking at their partner's body and enjoy their partner's orgasm for themselves as much as for something to be given.

Is that normal in the UK? I did Higher Biology without doing any of that. Admittedly that was in the last century but I don't recall my son,who was at school in the UK this century considering penises in that level of detail.

I honestly don't know how I would feel about this happening on a one night stand. It is entirely acdemic as the chances of my finding myself in this position are nil.

If there was a possibility of a serious relationship I'd expect to be told at an early stage. Perhaps I might be so bowled over by the man in question it wouldn't matter but really unsure about this. I definitely do not want to have sex with a person who has a vagina, so from that point of view a transman with a prosthetic penis would trouble me less.

Yes. You have to be able to label a drawing of the internal parts of a penis by the end of key stage three (age 14) and you are examined on your knowledge in GCSE Science exams.

Example at KS3:

www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/ks3/science/organisms_behaviour_health/reproduction/revision/2/

OK we don't do GCSEs up here and we don't have a general science exam.

It's taught at national five (replacement for old standard grade I think) in Scotland.

Example here:

www.bbc.co.uk/education/guides/z8pk7ty/revision/2

And I have always assumed this was part of basic Secondary school education in most countries. I am interested to hear of people not being taught this kind of stuff, and what impact that has.

I expect it probably was covered in O-Grade and/or Higher Grade Biology but I don't remember going into that level of detail.

As to what impact to be honest I'm not sure why not having been taught that level of detail should have any more impact than not having been taught the same level of detail about say the spleen or liver or kidney. I'm derailing again.

I was googling and came across a blog by a gay man who was equally as uncomfortable with the concept of a prosthetic penis. Also found a rather nasty transactivists blog being very nasty about boys and men like these who wanted surgery. Funny old world.

It's the flip side of the cotton ceiling. It wouldn't be enough for me to have sex with a non-op TW and ignore her penis. I like sex with people who actually have fanjos.

of course I know what a Penis is and what it does. what I meant was that it's not something on a day to day basis I really think about. if I see someone naked I don't pay a huge amount of attention to it. nor when I'm. having sex do I think about what it actually is and what it's doing. I'm not very good at explaining what I mean, If I noticed one looked a bit odd I'd not really bring it up because i would have no idea what happened to them and it would be rude to point out stuff about their body. I'd not want to be the person who made someone feel bad about themselves by asking what something was when it was the best they would have been able to get. I couldn't stand there and say "it's not a Penis because......"

in would find it hard to know when it went from rude to necessary

see i told you I wasn't very good at explaining, I can never quite think exactly how to phrase what I mean.

Giles, that's your particular situation, and your particular desire and psychology in sexual situations.

Everyone else still has the right to know what it is they are being penetrated with so they can consent.

I am very aware of what a penis is and what it does when I am having penetrative sex. That is a pretty big part of my sexuality as a straight woman! And I certainly don't worry about being rude when it comes to discussing what somebody else can put inside my body.

Lass, I think the difference would be that traditionally people in general, but women and girls to a greater extent were not educated about their own bodies and females were particularly kept in the dark about the male body.

I think there were a lot of consequences to that; people suffering with health problems, not understanding what was happening to them during puberty, having unsatisfying sexual experiences and not being able to meaningfully consent to sex because they didn't understand what was happening.

Look at myths like if a man is in a sexual situation and he doesn't ejaculate, it will be physically dangerous for him. Or the myth that ejaculation and orgasm are the same thing in men. People still believe those now.

A lot of the stuff that comes up around transgender doesn't seem to be sexist in any new way. It seems like all the old sexism just wrapped up in a new way.

And maybe that happens in every generation?

Maybe that is what makes the subordination of women and homophobia so difficult to argue against, because the justification for it keeps changing.

Sexist in what sense almond? (Wasn't sure which bit you meant in particular - this thread has got really random )

Agree, that's why the whole Idea of gender dysphoria seems very sexist and offensive to me. It's the girls are this boys are that and we are like totally different species that I find offensive.
Men and women really aren't that different.
It's sexist stereotyping that reinforces the idea that if you like certain things or think in a certain way then it's your gender that's the problem not the stereotyping of society.

Ah I see. Our notions of gender are definitely influenced by sexism in society, I don't doubt that for a minute. And there's loads of women who like stereotypically male things and vice versa who aren't in the slightest bit trans.
But there are people who want to change gender and they think that on a longterm serious basis. It doesn't bother me in the slightest if they want to change - we can't say no just because some of their views (as with us all) may be linked back to a patriarchal system.
I was talking to a woman who's trans yesterday (as in she was assigned male at birth) and she was talking about the immense pressure she feels under to look Caitlin Jenner-esque. We were both saying how important it is to have a range of trans role models in the media with differing notions of masculinity or femininity.

Giles re I'm. really struggling to see how it would he possible to achieve a happy medium here. There is a happy medium, people are honest with each other about the reality of their situation. Whether someone has always felt like a man or women on the inside they were born in a biological sex and they have changed bits of that physical outside. This is a fact. If they do not think the person they want to sleep with can handle this fact, then they should not be sleeping with them, full stop. Of course people should treat each other with respect, not disclose things further etc etc. But withholding important information in this intimate situation is not on. We are not talking about work/social situations etc where I would totally respect people's right not to disclose things about themselves they do not wish to.

If you don't mind my saying, I don't think you are bad at explaining, I just think we are all being told by the media there is no difference with trams people and we can't have an opinion because it is transphobic. So it 'feels' transphobic to say that I as a straight woman do not want to have sex with a transman. but maybe in another life I would not mind at all, I may be happy to do so, who knows. But what i would not be happy with is to be deceived. And I can totally see why a lesbian, gay man or straight man would feel the same. By exactly the same token if I were to have a one night stand with a (mostly) gay man I would expect him to tell me too! Or if he were married etc. I can see why people do not, because they want to deceive the other person. But i do not feel that is right to do so. So it is not about being transphobic it is about being open and honest.

almond re There isn't a right in England to mislead someone you are having sex with as to what genitals you have. There is a right to meaningfully consent to what you are penetrated with. Absolutely!

Alass re If there was a possibility of a serious relationship I'd expect to be told at an early stage. Can I ask why the length of 'relationship' is so significant? If you would like to answer, please do, it not, no worries. And I would also be most unlikely to have a one night stand, partly as I am happily married and secondly because I am very unlikely to ever want to reveal my naked body to another living soul! So it is academic but I can still have an opinion (auto correct just said 'onion'!), as can you!

italian I think you have put it well there. I would worry yes, that how I said something or by raising it, that I would be being disrespectful to that person. I don't have a problem with trans people or gay people or anyone fir those reasons. I like or dislike people as a result of how they are . I suffer regularly from foot in mouth syndrome and I really would worry if get a bit tongue tied and come across as being phobic towards that person and I'm really not. I hate everyone equally

equally if someone had been burnt or I'll I certainly would not want to pry as to why their parts did not work as usual.

I really would not want to make someone who has been through so much feel worse about themselves or that when we maybe have talked or laughed or found eachother attractive up to that point suddenly none of that mattered and that it was all about the Penis and origin of said Penis.

I kind of got me the train of thought of body parts in general and how so many people now thanks to medical advances have had all kinds of extend transplants, face, arms, maybe even a Penis and how someones body could be made up of other people's organs/cells etc. and how wrong it would feel to physically have a list of what transplants/procedures we ate comfortable with and what we aren't comfortable touching or seeing.

it's really hard to say something matters without feeling like it's discrimination your right there.

etreme transplants

damn phone

I think being born female and having surgery and hormones to make you appear male and not telling a prospective sexual partner this is a much bigger deception than having had a circumcision or prosthetic hand or false teeth or toupe.
I also agree that the only reason not to tell would be because you think the other person might not want sex with you which seems to me to be the reason you should tell them.

Giles I have had treatment with donor eggs (it didn't work, and I have a birth child and adapted child but that is by the by), because of the treatment I had I can never donate blood. It is a fact, it doesn't feel completely 'fair', I'd imagine any risk (to the recipient of my blood) would be minimal, since I am reasonably (!) fit and well. Yet it is a physical fact and I am required to make this information known if I were to try and donate blood and for this reason I would be stopped.

I do not generally tell friends in real life that I have had treatment with donor eggs (because it is not really relevant to now).

Sometimes biology just is!

In the same way with my adopted son I tell no one I do not need to tell of his adoption, not because I am embarrassed or ashamed (I am not) but because it is his story and private. Yet if I am in any medical siltation and am asked about family illnesses, whether he is likely to have this or that because I do or don't have this or that, I tell the truth - he is adopted and I do not know all the family history and I don't know about this or that.

I am using these examples to show that I think sometimes biological facts are significant, and sometimes they are not. When one is being closely intimate with another person, regardless of the length of the relationship, I personally think these things are important.

Just for the record I think trans men can look very attractive, none of my comments are about how someone looks.

Vashta, I wasn't referring to people transitioning. I can see your perspective on that.

I was thinking of some of the points raised about how women should behave. In response to a point I raised about women's right to consent to what they're penetrated with, arguments against are that:

A woman must not be rude.
A woman should put a man's feelings and privacy first.
A woman should not be too frank or explicit when talking about the male body.
A woman should be complimentary about a man's sexual organs.
Once you've gone beyond a certain point sexually (seen each other's genitals), a man is expecting to penetrate you, and it isn't acceptable to then not want to for any reason.
Women shouldn't normally be very knowledgeable about male bodies or be educated about them.
Women should view the penis as something that penetrates them rather than having a female gaze and desire/enjoyment for the specifics of male arousal.

That is just old fashioned sexism. I think that Buffy's point of can you not reverse your perspective and think about how you would want to behave if you were disclosing is a good one. But the answer for many people (many women!) is that no, they can't reverse it, because to do so would require showing empathy to the person being disclosed to - a woman. Many people struggle to empathise with women, particularly in sexual situations around consent, because the woman's role is assumed to be something akin to a public service provided to others.

I have a lot of sympathy with Lass's attempts to defend femininity as being a very positive cultural set of interests and behaviours. I tend to agree with her and think it is unfairly criticised. But in discussions around sex, the really troubling and damaging aspects of what is expected of femininity appear - the inability to view and treat women (especially women who have casual sex) as humans with a full humanity.

And we seem to move through theory after theory that justifies why it is okay to treat women that way. We can never just focus on women's rights, because there is always some new way of justifying, be it psychological, economic, linguistic or biological as to why women don't deserve the same empathy or rights as other humans.

And in ten years they'll be some totally new reason why my consent is being trivialised.

Almondpudding excellent post.