My Transgender Kid

[kua]

Anyone watching? Half way through, quite different kids, though gender stereotypes seem to be a quite strong theme.

I like lass's dating profile too. We could live in a sport free utopia

And I think a lot of reaction to feminity is in reaction to it being viewed and treated as lesser

Interesting stuff on gender as a hierarchy.
I want to see things associated with femininity viewed in a more positive light. This is probably from a very selfish point of view. Dd is an extremely girly girl. There's nothing wrong with that.
I don't want her viewing her preferences as "lesser" than her friends choices.

Another reason for me to avoid sport can't walk in heels, all my shoes are flats.

Not sure I'd describe wearing cargo pants as a feminist choice. And I don't think anyone else has. It was offered up as an alternative to dresses and skirts. Not the definitive line in what constitutes a feminist choice.

Not quite- it was stunned incomprehension by Cote that I had never owned this garment or boot cut cords. Why these 2 particular garments were singled out wasn't clear to me but the lack of them apparently means I am capable of less thought than a Stepford robot.

WhenSheWasBad's point is well made. There are frequently posts on MN boasting about how wonderfully tomboyish (ghastly word) their daughters are.

Cotes exact words were Are you a Stepford Wife? IIRC even those turned out to be robots in the end

Followed up by Let me guess - You are rubbish at math, don't like sciences, and read chick-lit?

Those comments are insults and were intended to be insults.

The second one is compounded by very narrow-minded (and inaccurate ) application of stereotyping.

I love Wagner and have always thought his music quite feminine in its ability to evoke emotion and passion. I think of Bach as more masculine if we're being binary about music.

Hmm, not sure about music being femine or masculine. I'm aware Isolde's Liebestod can reduce men and women to tears. For me it sounds like what most of Wagner does, a series of notes each unconnected to the next unlike say Rosenkavalier's , Hab mir’s gelobt which does make me cry.

So far as JS Bach, there is a pleasing mathematical precision and perfection in some of his work, The Goldberg Variations for example and also in the work of his contemporary Scarlatti. This Scarlatti piece for example but I wouldn't describe it as masculine.

Lass - I'm sorry to see that you feel insulted. Rest assured that was not my intention. Especially re "Stepford Wife", that was re your "I've never ever worn anything that can be worn by a man" which brought to mind this sort of dress code, as in the movie Stepford Wives.

"I'm fed up of the assertion by some feminists that girls don't like sports just because the nasty old patriarchy says they are not supposed."

Straw Man. I didn't claim anything of the sort, neither did anyone here that I can see.

"I don't like sports and never have because I personally find sport really boring."

And you are basing this judgement on a grand total of how many sports that you have tried? It is your opinion and I really don't care, however, you must know at some level that this is not a conclusion you have arrived personally, since by your admission, you "loathe all sports" without having tried most. It sounds very much like learned behaviour, and not personal taste which would be more like "I like paragliding but find golf boring".

"Oh and come off it with the idea that sport is essential to good health - no it isn't. I walk a lot..."

Mind boggling You would think that everyone knows in this day and age that regular physical activity is essential to good health. Such as walking, weather or not you want to call it a sport. Most are much more fun than walking, as well.

"I wonder Cote I'm very fond of the operas of Mozart and Handel and Benjamin Britten but Wagner leaves me cold. "

Thanks for sharing but I can't see what you mean by it. I don't like Mozart. It sounds mostly like basic elevator music to me. Is that your innate gender identity again - your brain making you love stuff that women are supposed to love according to society's gender roles?

"As for choice of clothes I'm a woman. I like being a woman. I don't want to be a man."

Agreed with all of the above. And your point?

"I don't want to look like a man and I don't want to wear men's clothes."

You wouldn't look like a man if you wore trousers and they are not "men's clothes" anyway. Nobody is asking if you enjoy wearing a bow tie. Do you not realise that it is very Stepford-Wifeish to claim trousers are "men's clothes"? We don't live in 1920s anymore, do we?

Re Bach - I love all of his music, its mathematical harmony, and mastery of Counterpoint. It makes perfect sense to me. I love it that I can sit and listen separately to each instrument and its perfect & complete melody, like in his where two violins practically duel with their equally important and complex music.

It has never occurred to me to think of Bach's music as masculine. Mathematical, perfectionist, exciting, and relentless but not masculine or feminine imho.

It is your opinion and I really don't care, however, you must know at some level that this is not a conclusion you have arrived personally

You just can't stop it can you? Telling me you know better over and over and I am wrong. Feministplaining at its very best.

Am I expected to run through every single bloody sporting activity and only then decide sport isn't for me? I had enough of it at school.

Walking every day is not sport-it's what I do every day. Where did I say anything about not walking?

I brought in the reference to music to try to establish if there was anything on which you are prepared to concede I am capable of making my own mind up about given you queried whether I was a Stepford Robit. Apparently not. And btw the way where on earth are you getting this idea that women are supposed to love Mozart?

And as for not meaning to be insulting? Oh come off it. Look at what you wrote. The second sneering bit about maths, science and chick-lit in particular. You complain about gender stereotyping yet you can write what you did?

For what it's worth, not that it's actually any of your business, I have maths and science qualifications. They aren't brilliant and I would have been mad to do a science degree but they are still well above the average UK school leaver.

*"I'm fed up of the assertion by some feminists that girls don't like sports just because the nasty old patriarchy says they are not supposed."

Straw Man. I didn't claim anything of the sort, neither did anyone here that I can see*

It is a regular theme on FWR that girls are put off sport by society's expectations, particularly that they drop sport as they get older.

"Am I expected to run through every single bloody sporting activity and only then decide sport isn't for me?"

You can decide you don't like physical activity in general and decide sport isn't for you, no problem. However, you need to have tried a wide range of them in order to rationally reach the decision that they are all boring. This is logic. I'm sorry if you think it is insulting.

"Walking every day is not sport-it's what I do every day. Where did I say anything about not walking?"

You said you "walk a lot". That is regular physical activity that many people would call a sport. Check out 'racewalking'.

"And btw the way where on earth are you getting this idea that women are supposed to love Mozart?"

Well, you claim to be born with an innate sense of feminine gender and you like Mozart. Since all your other tastes are apparently in line with your gender, I wondered whether women are supposed to love Mozart

And if you realise that this is silly, now you know why the rest of your "innate gender" markers such as insistence on always wearing skirts & dresses sound silly, too.

"The second sneering bit about maths, science and chick-lit in particular."

Why would you think women's gender role is "sneering"? I thought you loved it. Not being good at math, little interest in sciences, reading mostly chick-lit are all traits you presumably have if you really comply entirely to the whole gender role.

Or could it be that you don't actually fit 100% to the feminine gender? (Like the rest of us)

Well Cote apparently you can decide Mozart is elevator music.

Despite trying and hating all the field events, hockey, football, basketball, tennis, badminton, lacrosse, table tennis, net ball, rock climbing, cross country running and whatever else was on offer at school and having zero interest in watching sport I still have to persevere do I? I occasionally go swimming but my goodness is lap swimming tedious. Swimming in the sea is fun but beach holidays are not my destination of choice.

I take it you must have heard every single piece of music Mozart wrote otherwise how can you possibly have come to the conclusion it is elevator music?

Given your understanding of the polyphonic complexity of Bach it's surprising you would not appreciate the polyphonic vocal complexity in the seven- and eight-voice tutti for acts 2 and 4 of Figaro.

Nice diverting attempt to justify your sneering comment and neatly avoiding dealing with your own use of stereotyping.

Oh you are right about the double violin concerto. I heard a fantastic interpretation of it by Anne Sophie Mutter and the Muttter ensemble at this year's Edinburgh Festival. The cloth eared critic from The Times who said it was schmaltzy and sentimental was so wrong.

The next instalment of this programme deals with ftm teenagers which will be interesting, they get so much less media attention.

Sigh. Clearly you don't see a difference between "is" and "sounds like xxx to me" .

At least I understand why it is rather difficult to communicate with you

Anyway, re music:

"Given your understanding of the polyphonic complexity of Bach it's surprising you would not appreciate the polyphonic vocal complexity in the seven- and eight-voice tutti for acts 2 and 4 of Figaro."

I'm sorry but there is no comparison. I was talking about Counterpoint not just complexity. Bach is the rightful king of Counterpoint in all history of music as I'm sure you can Google a bit and find out for yourself, and with all due respect, Mozart's music doesn't have much of it at all. To each their own and all that, but I can only smile at your claim that Mozart's Figaro is an example of what I was talking about in my previous post

sigh it makes little real difference whether I say "sport is boring " or sport bores me And in any case I used both formats. Yet you continue to assert this could not possibly be an opinion which I had come to of my own accord.

Really who needs men to tell women they are second class when there are feminists like you determined to tell women they can't think for themselves.

I thought perhaps you had only heard the more easily accessible parts of Mozart. That would explain the elevator music comment.

Ooo err all a bit off track....

Just as an aside Lass I hate sport too!

And just an aside, the trouble with ascribing everything to our upbringing and to the patriarchy etc is that where do we find our feminism? And how much is really us?

It seems a bit sad that every bit of us is just the result of what other people expect of us or have programmed into us.

I am very dyslexic, did very badly at school, was very shy and have ended up getting a degree, travelling the world, studying other languages and achieving things I never felt possible.

I do think it is good to be aware that our culture can influence us for good or ill, and to look at our preferences in this light but it is not always helpful to feel that all of our preferences and choices have somehow been programmed into us, which is what I am reading into what I am reading (I am inferring I am not saying others are implying).

Oh except Taekwan-do, I love taekwan-do.

it seems a bit sad that every bit of us is just the result of what other people expect of us or have programmed into us

I know what you mean italian I personally think we are the product of a mix of - our genes & the environment.
Different aspects of a person is determined by both nature and nuture to a different degree.

Eg height is mostly nature (if both your parents are under 5 foot it's highly unlikely you will end up over 6 foot).
Nuture also plays a role in height, if you don't get the right nutrition you won't grow to reach your full potential.

Feeling that you are more than the sum of your parts is natural. It almost feels like an arguement for having a soul.

sorry gone off track again

Buddy and WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid well as a Christian I do think we have a soul! But I was not actually thinking of that, I was thinking that we are more than the sum of all the bits other people put into us! I'm a thinking, growing entity but I have been influenced by a whole bunch of other stuff, as you point out.

Buffynot Buddy!