My Transgender Kid

[kua]

Anyone watching? Half way through, quite different kids, though gender stereotypes seem to be a quite strong theme.

Elsa I wish you all the best with all your kids. I would love to hear more insights from you. Someone who is living this is in a much better position to tell us what it is all about.

2rebecca, what makes you think that [] I didn't get why George couldn't just wear trousers, have short hair and be a tom boy without her parents suggesting that that meant she was a boy. - it was her parent's who had said this meant she was a boy?

We only saw a snap shot of their lives. I can't imagine any parent would immediately jump to the thought their kids were transgender. My dd loves climbing trees and wearing trousers but has never identified as a boy.

I haven't seen all of it but will catch up over the weekend. From what I have seen I think it goes way beyond just a girl wanting to wear boyish clothes and play with traditional boy's toys and vice versa.

George is not a likeable child but he is vehement that he is a boy. I have friends whose daughter at that age refused to wear "girls' clothes and who insisted on having a "boy's haircut" but still was annoyed if people mistook her for a boy. Very different from George. It did not seem to me that just not wearing girly clothes would be sufficient to placate George's idea of who he is.

Paddy is a likeable child and she is vehement she is a girl ; despite the fact she may well face bullying because of that.

I know for many of you, you don't accept there is an innate sense of gender. I personally think there is. For example I hate the idea of gender neutral clothe. I have, for as long as I have been in charge of choosing my clothes, never owned any article of clothing which could comfortably be worn by a man. My personal sense of who I am is very tied up with being a feminine appearing woman. I would be miserable if I had to wear gender neutral clothes or mens' clothes.

"I know for many of you, you don't accept there is an innate sense of gender. I personally think there is."

Maybe the disagreement is because of the choice of words: It is conceivable that the brain 'knows' whether the body should have male or female organs & produce hormones accordingly. That would be "innate sense of SEX".

What is not conceivable and is frankly a bit silly (given the vast numbers of women who don't conform to it) is the assertion that the brain knows that it should speak softly, be coy, love pink and shun blue, not be too assertive, curb personal ambition etc. That would be "innate sense of GENDER", which is what you are claiming and which feminists (rightly) don't accept.

Spot on Cote.

"For example I hate the idea of gender neutral clothes. I have, for as long as I have been in charge of choosing my clothes, never owned any article of clothing which could comfortably be worn by a man."

You have never ever worn a pair of jeans? What about cargo trousers? Boot-cut cords?

Have you never done any sports such as skiing (identical styles for men & women), underwater diving or sailing (where wetsuits would be worn), basketball (identical uniforms to men's).

Are you a Stepford Wife? IIRC even those turned out to be robots in the end.

I think that it is entirely possible to both have an innate sense of sex and an innate sense that you want to express through aesthetics that you are a member of that group (gender expression).

So if Lass had been raised in a society where all the women wore trousers and all the men wore skirts, she would never want to wear a skirt. That seems entirely plausible.

I'm not sure what an innate sense of gender is, so can't understand that. But I understand that people have a very strong need to express through clothing which sex they are, by dressing in the clothes associated with that sex (gender expression) whether that is innate or not I don't know.

What is not conceivable and is frankly a bit silly (given the vast numbers of women who don't conform to it) is the assertion that the brain knows that it should speak softly, be coy, love pink and shun blue, not be too assertive, curb personal ambition etc.

You see what I don't get is , where exactly are these hordes of people telling women to shun personal ambition etc? They have been singularly absent for me.

• You have never ever worn a pair of jeans? What about cargo trousers? Boot-cut cords?

Have you never done any sports such as skiing (identical styles for men & women), underwater diving or sailing (where wetsuits would be worn), basketball (identical uniforms to men's).

Are you a Stepford Wife? IIRC even those turned out to be robots in the end*

And you don't go in for stereotyping yet you can make that comment? How insulting.

No, I have never owned cargo trousers or boot cut cords. I briefly wore jeans as a teenager and hated them.

I loathe sports. Always have. Not because " girls are told don't do sports" but because I find sport pointless and boring. It was a considerable relief at school that if I wanted to do Latin (which I did ) it could only be fitted in by losing 2 periods of PE. Extra maths tuition took care of another period.

I don't believe in the innate sense of gender and struggle to take on board how clothing has anything do with it.

I have sometimes thought how much easier it would be to be a male in my office, just on appearance, couple of good suits and a change of ties.

Strangely, in the late 80s early 90s it was all about the suit so it was easier to dress for the day.

"where exactly are these hordes of people telling women to shun personal ambition etc? They have been singularly absent for me."

Unless you have been living on a desert island or perhaps reared in a tribe of Amazon warriors, I will have to presume that you have been socialised just like the rest of us and are just playing dumb here.

"I loathe sports. Always have. Not because "girls are told don't do sports" but because I find sport pointless and boring."

Let me guess - You are rubbish at math, don't like sciences, and read chick-lit? I am that you are so perfectly conditioned in your gender role and still think that it is all a biological part of you, nothing to do with how you are raised. How fascinating.

Equally surprising that anyone can claim in this day and age that sports are "pointless". Have you never heard of the benefits of exercise - for your heart, muscles, posture, strength, flexibility? Seriously?

As for "boring", well, I can only assume that you haven't tried many (any?) sports. I have done a lot of windsurfing, sailing, & skiing, scaled down mountains, competed in several disciplines like swimming, tennis, and basketball. None of it has been boring.

If all sports in the world are boring, what is fun in the world of ALass? I would be interested to know.

Yes, I suppose working full time whilst being a mother, being a partner in a large commercial law firm is the epitome of a Stepford Wife.

I find sport immensely boring, either to do it or watch it. I always have done. Sorry does feminism not allow that?

You don't find sport boring, well bully for you. You now seem to be saying basically I can't even have made up my own mind I hate sports as it's all conditioning. How completely patronising.

How you extrapolate from the fact sport bores me rigid means I'm a fan of chic lit is beyond me but carry on with the stereotyping. You know I don't think , apart from Bridget Jones (is that chic lit? It's not a genre I'm familiar with )I have read any chic lit.

As for what interests me, well let's see. I was in Amsterdam two weeks ago and whilst there was at a performance of Der Rosenkavalier, a concert of Schubert lieder and a chamber concert of a mix of Bach and contemporary music.

Last week I was in London and saw The Marriage of Figaro and Romeo and Juliet at Covent Garden and in between a play. You get the drift?

ALASS You seem to be a tad confused on what this subjects about, but glad to hear that you have an enviable social life.

I'm sorry for the derail.

Cote asked If all sports in the world are boring, what is fun in the world of ALass? I would be interested to know since presumably being a Stepford Wife my head is empty.

It seems to me just as narrow minded and adhering to rigid stereotyping to insist, as Cote is doing, that a girl can't like sports simply because she is not interested.

?

Just popped back to the thread to see I was picked up on my choice of 'crap' to describe sparkly unicorns. Fair enough.
I, like most people tend to dismiss stuff I don't like as crap - or boring perhaps? - as Lass described sports. So I did smile to be picked up as judgemental in a post which went on to describe sports as boring. For the record, I find football mindnumbing but can see why it matters to others. But yeah, sparkly unicorns give me a gut reaction because, like so many things foisted on girls they seem a bit shallow, superficial and lacking in any value, like a diet of sherbet dibdabs.
I find it a little easier to understand Nic's FTT than MTF. I can imagine why it would be appealing to cultivate a muscular body and live as a member of the male class.
But I don't know what people mean when they say they identify with [that group of biologically opposite sex]. I don't understand what they are identifying with. I can imagine desiring something that the opposite sex has biologically and my sex doesn't, and I can imagine what it might be like to be treated by society as a member of the opposite sex, and I can imagine my natural likes and dislikes happening to fall in line with society's prescribed stereotypes for that sex. But that isn't identifying AS that sex.
I want to understand this better.
I kept wanting to ask the children what they thought the differences are between boys and girls. Is it 'things they like', or 'how the world treats them' or 'what their bodies can do' or 'what they look like'. I'm none the wiser after watching the programme.

I found it disapointingly simplistic. It implied that being a boy means football / fireman / aggression and being a girl means princesses / dolls / pink. I think it's completely understandable that a child (or adult for that matter) who is transitioning might be drawn to stereotypes as a simplistic way to mark that change, but the programme almost implied the children's interests were innate and the only thing that marks gender identity. I also winced at the mother's 'girl brain in a boy's body' analogy which IMO isn't really how it works!

But... I'm guessing the audience isn't intended to be gender-critical, intelligent people. I think it's aimed at people who think trans doesn't exist or that they're freaks, in which case the "look, they're normal people who do normal things" message was actually pretty good.

So I did smile to be picked up as judgemental in a post which went on to describe sports as boring

But you were equating the sparkly unicorns as being girly=crap. You were picking on something girly and dismissing it.

I don't think sport is boring because of the reason Cote is convinced I do ; namely that I've been brainwashed by the patriarchy.

That view seems to be received wisdom in feminist circles.. According to that theory my husband is free to think the number of balls kicked into a net is of zero interest to him,even "a bit shallow, superficial and lacking in any value" but I'm not as I am apparently unable to make a free choice about it. Feministplaining is just as bad as mansplaining.

I've now watched all of the programme and I'm not warming to George at all.

It's been a long time since I've been around 7/8 year olds but do both children seem very babyish for their age?

Perhaps a little young for their ages but I can imagine mine going all silly for the camera like that!
I was hoping Nick might talk to George about his relationship with his sister - maybe he did and we missed it. I feel really sorry for her (& the mum) but George is only little, I don't think we should be too harsh! I also wondered if boy/girl twins go through a change like that anyway at that age, when they're bombarded with messages about how different boys and girls are, and that they shouldn't be friends.

Thanks to all the messages children are given, George is learning that it's shameful to be a girl or to be thought to be friends with a girl. It's those messages that are at fault not him. He's just trying to be super-'boy like' in a way that makes sense to a 7yo.

The section which is missing is what happened when George and Paddy started exhibiting their personal preferences for clothes and toys and how their parents reacted.

I mentioned my friends' daughter who refused to wear any "girls ' "clothes and insisted on having a "boy's" haircut. No one said to her those are for boys and she was cross if she was mistaken for a boy.

Similarly there are the routine "my son wants to wear an Elsa dress" threads on here to which the response now is usually - how nice- what exactly is the problem.

What we don't get from the programme is whether as Vashta said, a child who is transitioning might be drawn to stereotypes as a simplistic way to mark that change ; or whether the parents' reaction was such that the child transitions simply to acquire the trappings of the other sex.

For example I hate the idea of gender neutral clothes. I have, for as long as I have been in charge of choosing my clothes, never owned any article of clothing which could comfortably be worn by a man.

Wouldn't skirts or dresses be comfortable on men then? Are they physiologically so different that these clothing items would be more uncomfortable on them? I don't think so.

You were being dismissive of sport in the same way Hairy was of unicorns. Because you don't like them. Reasons behind that are debatable.

No I was not being dismissive of sport in the same way. Hairy was dismissive of unicorns because she perceived them as being primarily girly.

My point is that sport always gets trotted out as being something girls would do if only the nasty old patriarchy didn't tell them not to.

It seems impossible for some feminists to accept girls or women are capable of making their own mind up about having zero interest in sport.

It's classic feminists know better as you have now amply demonstrated by your comment "reasons behind that are debatable"

Oh and by "comfortable " I didn't mean physiologically "comfortable" but comfortable that passing strangers would not look oddly at the wearer.

I saw this show. my first thought was how lovely the parents were in being so supportive and they clearly value the relationship with their child over them being thought of as different and trying to get them be something they aren't.

I would like to have seen as others have stated, that they could do and like everything they did and liked as whatever gender. being a girl isnt all about dresses and glitter any more than being a boy is all about muscles and fire fighting.

I also don't feel that anything George had been through justified being as cruel to his sister and rude to his mum as he was . she almost came across as she felt saying telling him.off for his behaviour was in some way being negative towards him as boy if that makes any sense.

I thought what she did with regards to setting up the meeting with nic was a lovely idea however ig did seem to reinfirce the stereo types and and I did think both sets of parents appeared to put words intto their mouths. although I am fully aware that the silliness and shyness could well be because of the cameras.

I also thought that nic came across as a lovely person and I found his honesty and openess very informative.

Yes, Nic's lovely! I wanted to see him talk about how being male doesn't have to mean aggression, that you can be male and kind too.

He did seem very kind and thoughtful I do hope George noticed that part as well as the fact he was a fire fighter.

ultimately he did appear to he a good role model for George and seemed to care very much about helping him go through it all so he would have someone.

nit his mum does need to "stop feeling sorry fir him" is the wrong phrase really as she has clearky seen him broken by other people's reactions, but I can't think of how else to phrase it because the excuse about his sister is just that, an excuse and there seemed to be no realisation that she's going to be having a hard time too. it was all about George's feelings. and he's going to need all his family's support. including hos sister.