Ms, Mrs,Miss

[LookAtMeGo]

Apologies in advance, as I'm sure it has been done to death. But today I realised the truth of why I refer to myself as Mrs even though I'm divorced. My mum is divorced and told me as a child in response to me asking why she is still Mrs that it is so nobody judges her and she looks respectable (not her actual words, but that's what I got from the convo at the age of about ten)

Even as a highly educated professional, I still wanted to hold on to the title post-divorce and I feel pretty... I don't know... angry? Upset? Ashamed? I really don't know. All I know is I don't feel good, and I shall be Ms from now on.

Any thoughts? Is there something else I should be doing?

To be clear - I don't mean that it's infuriating that my sister is getting married and changing her name. I mean that it's infuriating that my parents are on board with that but can't understand my choice of my own/my son's name.

I can understand that cynara!

I am not married and use Ms most of the time although I also have things with Miss on them. I've never heard of it being for divorcees until I read it on mumsnet. I started using Ms occasionally at 18 (I'm 44 now) but use it all the time now as I seems ridiculous to be using the title of a small girl when I'm in my 40s! As I've got older though, I find people increasingly call me Mrs which is annoying.

Ms has a historical precedent as an abbreviation for Mistress in the 17th century. It was re-introduced into common usage in the early 20th century as a title to use when sending letters to women whose marital status the sender didn't know. Nothing to do with divorce at all.

I always thought it was predominantly used by divorced women - that was what older relatives and I think also teachers at primary school told me. I used it myself before I got married and after my divorce. It seems to have replaced Miss instead of replacing Miss and Mrs. When I got married using Mrs Hisname was a dealbreaker for XH and it was relatively painless to agree, given the other social pressures, expectations and perceived social status, and how much I wanted to get married by that stage. I've now reverted to Ms mymaidenname but changing it back has been impossible - of all the organisations I've sent my documentation to, only the DVLA has actioned my request. All the others ignored me, except my GP surgery, which actually refused, the receptionist telling me that changing your name on divorce is not allowed. When I pursued it I was told if the NHS changed my records first then they would do it. Nothing has been resolved as I'm too busy working full time and looking after a toddler to repeatedly send my documents to data controllers.

I used to be a proud Miss, but I'm a bit old for that now (I do think of it as an equivalent to 'Master', and I'm blowed if I'm going to be a Mrs (it's bad enough being 'Dses Mum' all the time - although many people make the assumption. So Ms it is, with plenty of correcting of people (who never seem to mind)

We have one child with DP's surname and one with mine (Deedpolled - registered with DP's surname, but I regretted it so much - and it turns out you can switch to the fathers name, but not the mothers name with a re-register!).

My parents are secretly pleased that I'm keeping my name, and have one son with that name too, my MIL was taken aback when I changed DS2's name, and asked what we'd do when we got married and changed my name (err.. I won't be changing my name) - which also surprised her, but she's fine with it. Surprised, but supportive (not encouraging though). I may have a bit of a reputation with her - but then she knows her son and realises that someone less strong willed wouldn't stand a chance in a relationship with him.

Kept my name when got married, I got married in my 40s which was part of it, it seemed ridiculous to ditch my name at that stage, it's me.

But even if I'd got married younger, I'd have never changed my name.

TBH getting married was a hard enough decision for me as it seemed to have the potential for being a patriarchal society decision - I really did have to think quite hard about why I was doing it. Especially as no kids and he's got an ex with his name and kids.

I really think it's one of those things, changing your name that is, that might well die out, what with so many divorces, women have professional names etc.

Oh and point of thread, I'm a Ms, always have been

I'm married and use Ms.
I didn't take dh's surname so I don't feel Mrs is right. And Miss is not right either. Ms seems most logical to me.

mehitabel6 Your argument makes absolutely no sense . I can't even think of a response.

I think your way of doing things is great Cyanara and wished I'd thought of it.

The whole Ms = divorced woman is definitely beyond MN. It's something I was told when much younger and I observed it too - that predominantly Ms was used by divorced women I knew.

However by the time I was in my mid-twenties it was much more common and I started using it (always hated Miss and Mrs was my mother - who is lovely but still a generation older).

My sons have my husbands name. I do wish one had had my name and one his (but that's just me wanting to rebel). The only problem I've encountered is taking them abroad by themselves and having to take their birth certificates to prove I'm their mother .

Lukymum - why don't you use Ms? I'm so confused.

Have I understood this right - some don't use Ms because they don't like the sound of it?

Cynara the reaction of your parents is very interesting. Do you think it's because you haven't got married but have changed your name? If you had done the same thing, i.e. you and DP choose a new name, but done that at the point of getting married, would the reaction have been the same I wonder? (I doubt they would have been able to get on board with it then either, just interested).

I bloody love being Ms, and switched to it at 16, but it helps that I always disliked both Mrs (makes me think of a slightly miserable, dowdy woman bustling about with a basket of shopping) and Miss (makes me think of a miserable, uptight headmistress with a pince nez) - both quite extreme cliches I realise, but somehow they sank in early on.

I like saying "It's Ms" to people who ask is it Miss or Mrs. One day, if I say it often enough, they might think to include it in their range of options.

I'm not married but if even if I was I would still be "Ms Myname". That being the point of it.

But, if women decide that being accorded a title decided by their marital status is unfair, and switch to Ms, I think that's great – at any age.

tribpot that's a good question, and I'm not really sure... I would imagine that if we got married and chose a completely new name they would still be totally bemused by it. If we got married and I changed my name to DP's name (as. if.) obviously they'd be fine with that, and funnily enough I'm pretty sure they'd be fine with me getting married and keeping my own name. I'd imagine they would expect any children to take DP's name in those circumstances but I think they'd probably just about get their heads round a child having my name. Although they'd probably be deeply suspicious of DP's intentions/commitment to to the child if he was ok with that.

I wouldn't mind if either one of them could articulate what their reservations are. It just frustrates me that they have encouraged my education, professional career and financial independence and yet balk at the idea of me retaining the equality those things have gained for me in the sphere of my family life. My dad is exactly the same about me being "Ms". It's like a woman is allowed only so much, but no more. Education and career, yes. Lifelong autonomy and unwillingness to conform, good god no.

A friend of the family decided to change her name when she got married but then soon changed it back as she couldn't be bothered with having to change everything. Both fine decisions, but my mum makes a big fuss about it, saying it's not that difficult blah blah blah and I think holds it against her as a person...

I found this -
www.newstatesman.com/cultural-capital/2014/09/mistress-miss-mrs-or-ms-untangling-shifting-history-women-s-titles

(Haven't read it yet, off to read it now!)

I think "missus" sounds horrible. Makes me think of an old Frankie Howard catch phrase.

My mother married and divorced twice and never changed her name. She was Miss Her Maiden Name all her life. She, my half- brother and I all have the same surname, which is my maternal grandfather's. I wish I'd kept it for my son.

is anyone else a bit at the fact that some posters have encountered people who find "Ms" controversial?

Well apparently I live in a bubble, but I've never encountered anyone who expressed an opinion on it being controversial.

It's standard usage at work as far as I'm concerned. I see on my desk at the moment letters addressed to me with no title at all and others with Ms.

I don't bloody get it, Achieve

OP - you mean you don't get the controversy?

Lass - I live in your bubble too. I saw someone call it a "bubble" upthread and I was really confused by that. Every work place I've worked in would default to Ms if they didn't have specific knowledge that the person wanted to be known by a different title.

on reflection, I'm probably most puzzled by the poster who said she is known as Mrs because her marital status is no one's business.

Maybe they should start teaching this in schools?

I don't think people openly say it's controversial, it's more a kind of raised eyebrow reaction or that faux - ooh-I-can't-get-my-head-round-such-modern-matters reaction. So someone on the phone etc will say is it Mrs or Miss, I say it's Ms - and sometimes they don't bat an eyelid, but other times there's a kind of "oh, I see" - i.e. you're one of those feminists.

Well yes I am but I do think that "othering" and eyebrow-raising is one of the things that makes some women not want to go there, though it's subtle.

The worst confusion arises at DS's primary school. I've told them, very nicely, that I am Ms Myname, but they (especially the HT) just look at me like I could knock them down with a feather - then keep using Mrs DS's name.

(The DC do have DP's name, which I kind of regret but I had my reasons at the time)

Saddest of all was when I went to help in class, kids were 8-ish. They all had to say "Gooooood Moooooooorning Mrs Teachersname." Then they turned to me and (obviously pre-coached) said "Gooooood Moooooooorning Mrs DS'sName."

Now you might think I could have just let it pass but I couldn't so quite brightly and cheerily I said "Actually my name is Ms Myname!"

They all immediately went: "Gooooood Moooooooorning Mrs Myname."
(Apart from DS I'd hope!)

So I did let that pass or we'd have been there all day.

I think if you work in a big organisation, or in London, it probably is very normal. I'm freelance and home-based. In work emails it's definitely the norm for clients contacting me from their offices to call me Ms as a matter of course. But I also move in SAHM/school playground/local area circles (not in London) and that's where I encounter much more of the puzzlement.

In my day to day life most people assume I'm Mrs - car dealers, people quoting me for work on the house, insurance.

In business, I'm generally just known by name, when a title is included it's generally an even split between Ms and Miss, (although, some native speakers from some countries default to Mr). Unless they discover I have kids when it suddenly becomes Mrs again.

I would always use Ms if I don't know myself, but it's really not that common I get it back.

Sylvanian "it's more a kind of raised eyebrow reaction"

same difference, that's what I mean. Why would anyone raise an eyebrow at this? Shocked at how the headteacher is treating you, what an awful example to set!

years ago, when I was maybe 20, I worked with a lady who was about 40 and changed from Miss Name to Ms Name after marriage. I asked why she hadn't been Ms all along and she said "I'm sorry to say I didn't realise how annoying the marital status thing was until I got married and received a flood of cards addressed to Mrs Husband's Name. I knew I was keeping my surname but that also made me realise the importance of Ms".

Yes, I've convinced myself - we should teach this in schools. though really I'd like to just end Miss & Mrs.

One of the advantages of living in the American South is that for many years, Mrs has been pronounced Miz by most people. It made it easier to get people used to Ms. And of course no one complains that it is an ugly sound.