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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Ms, Mrs,Miss

520 replies

LookAtMeGo · 05/08/2015 22:05

Apologies in advance, as I'm sure it has been done to death. But today I realised the truth of why I refer to myself as Mrs even though I'm divorced. My mum is divorced and told me as a child in response to me asking why she is still Mrs that it is so nobody judges her and she looks respectable (not her actual words, but that's what I got from the convo at the age of about ten)

Even as a highly educated professional, I still wanted to hold on to the title post-divorce and I feel pretty... I don't know... angry? Upset? Ashamed? I really don't know. All I know is I don't feel good, and I shall be Ms from now on.

Any thoughts? Is there something else I should be doing?

OP posts:
SylvanianCaracal · 06/08/2015 14:16

Re Mr, if I'm filling in an online form and the options are Miss or Mrs and no Ms, and it won't let me just not pick one, I choose Mr. (Unless gender is relevant which it usually isn't).

So when online shopping I do end up with parcels for Mr Myname. I quite like that. I think heh heh, see you can't actually define me by my marital status, so there.

achieve6 · 06/08/2015 14:29

I've only encountered one - seriously - online form that didn't have Ms. I tweeted at them and they said - very apologetically - that the form had been changed and some bits had just fallen off - including Dr, Prof etc - which I could see in fairness. They had it changed within hours.

in fairness to the organisations, I don't think they are trying to define anyone by marital status. I think that's what they think their female customers want. If we don't shout about just getting the one title, it won't change.

SenecaFalls · 06/08/2015 14:29

Titles are seldom asked for on forms the US. I have to have a background check for work and the form asks for my sex (well, it says "gender") and all names that I have been know by.

In the US, as has been pointed out, the default is Ms, especially in professional settings. I don't know any married women who use Mrs. And I have noticed that more and more letters are addressed with no title and the salutation is "Dear Jane Smith." This is the Quaker form of address, though I am sure that is not the reason for its use, except maybe in parts of Pennsylvania.

I have speculated before that titles seem much more important in the UK than in the US, perhaps because y'all have so many more to choose from: lord, lady, sir, dame, etc.

Original poster
LookAtMeGo · 06/08/2015 14:48

Just changed my title to Ms on the computers at work, and it felt very liberating!Grin

Just noticed all the divorced women here keep the Mrs. So weird this stuff is only just occurring to me. Feel like I was blind and now can see. I never thought to question why men's marital status is not advertised in such a way.

OP posts:
Nolim · 06/08/2015 15:02

I have speculated before that titles seem much more important in the UK than in the US, perhaps because y'all have so many more to choose from: lord, lady, sir, dame, etc.

I tend to agree. In the us i was ms for social things and dr for professional ones since i think it is a bit smug and unnecessary to use a professional tittle in social situations. But in the uk tittles seem to be very important and i get better results (customer service and such) using my professional tittle. Weird.

Original poster
LookAtMeGo · 06/08/2015 15:06

Because they see you as a person with status and intelligence, so you get the better treatment.

OP posts:
IvanOsokin · 06/08/2015 15:32

Bet that felt good, LookAtMeGo!

Like many others on here, I just can't get my head round why women would want to show their marital status in their title, especially as men don't.

I have been Ms ever since I can remember, whether single, cohabiting or married.

I didn't change my name when I married (didn't occur to either of us that I would) and our children have my surname, mainly because it irked us both that people assumed they would have their father's name. They have his name as a middle name.

I've never come across the 'Ms is for divorced women' thing except on here but I'll take everyone's word for it that it's a widespread misconception...

muminhants1 · 06/08/2015 15:42

When I got married I had a minor disagreement over the table plan with DH because I'd referred to all the men as Mr and the women as Ms. DH said that his mum would be offended to be referred to as Ms when she was a happily married Mrs and I had to go back through and change everyone to Miss and Mrs!

Marital status should be irrelevant. It's a good reason to get yourself a PhD I guess as you become a Dr, though not great if you're a Dr of history and people expect you to know about medicine...

Also can anyone clear up when a Master becomes a Mister? I'm sure I read that a boy becomes a Mr at 7, but a recent BA boarding pass said Master for my 12 year old.

muminhants1 · 06/08/2015 15:45

My mum changed her name by deed poll when I was born as she wasn't married to my dad at the time (shock horror in the early 70s) but they got married 18 months later.

But when they divorced 25 years later, because she'd changed her surname to my dad's before the marriage, she had to change back to her maiden name via deed poll again.

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 16:46

It all goes to prove that we are all different and should be free to choose for ourselves without needing to justify. We should also call others by their choice.
I can't see why you need a title most of the time- certainly not on a wedding seating plan.

SenecaFalls · 06/08/2015 16:54

But only women have a choice that involves disclosing whether they are married or not. Why is this? Because society still likes to identify women in terms of their relationships with men. And that wrong. It's not always a good thing to have a "choice."

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 17:15

I couldn't care less who knows my marital status. They don't anyway. I was still Mrs when not married.

Bleakhouse1879 · 06/08/2015 17:18

I received a letter the other day addressed to Master instead of Mister. It raised a smile for me until I opened it and saw it was my gas bill!

SirChenjin · 06/08/2015 17:19

It genuinely doesn't bother me. I just pick the one I feel like picking that day - and that's the great thing about having choice. I veer from Rev, to Lady, to Admiral of the Fleet (a personal favourite), to Sir, and so on, depending on my mood. Miss if I'm not speaking to DH.

Nolim · 06/08/2015 17:20

Mehitabel would you be ok if someone addresses you as ms? Maybe someone who doesnt know/remember that you prefer to be adressed as mrs and has to make a guess on the spot? If so why is that?

achieve6 · 06/08/2015 17:24

SenecaFalls - exactly! where's the "like" button? Grin

SylvanianCaracal · 06/08/2015 17:29

I don't think it's about being desperate to keep your marital status a secret. I'm not married and I don't give a toss who knows it. The point is that I'd like to move on from a system where my title as a woman is either/or, married to a man or not married to a man, and that's what matters about me. Because a) it's not and b) it's and sexist, because the same doesn't apply to men and c) it's sexist, because it makes marrying a man (or not) the main thing about me.

It's one of those things that no, it doesn't make a big practical difference. But it makes a big symbolic difference and sends an important message - that I have as much right as a man does for my marital status to be my business, and not to be the main thing about me.

achieve6 · 06/08/2015 17:42

Sylvanian, I might be really foolish here but what you've explained so eloquently is something I knew when I was a child. hence it comes as a real surprise to me that anyone needs it explaining to them - though if I meet anyone who does, I'm sending them to you as you do it so well.

Maybe Lass and I really are living in a protected bubble. In which case, hey, our bubble is nice!!! Grin

SylvanianCaracal · 06/08/2015 17:56

I'eve also known since childhood that I didn't want to be Miss or Mrs or ever change my surname. I think though I've had more practice at defending it because I've had far more people around me who just didn't get it! (and still don't)

Funnily enough my first introduction to feminism as a teenager was from a friend's mum who subscribed to Spare Rib and I used to look at the copies that were lying around. I decided right then and there to be Ms. But friend's mum was a Mrs Husbandsname. I just couldn't work out why, when her Spare Ribs had shown me the way! :o (I was maybe somewhat naive)

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 18:10

Not really Nolim - not enough to make it an issue. I wouldn't have them as a friend if they were rude enough to think they know better- but if it is important to them they can get on with it. I would just have a quiet word with others and say 'she has a bee in her bonnet about Ms- just ignore'.

Original poster
LookAtMeGo · 06/08/2015 20:06

It's definitely sexist. I don't see how anybody could argue otherwise.

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Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 20:25

I don't know why you have to see it. People have different ideas. You are entitled to yours and there is no reason why I have to see it.
I am not arguing. I will call you Ms if that is what you want. I am Mrs.

achieve6 · 06/08/2015 20:48

Mehitabel, I agree we are all entitled to our view.but I disagree that these are just "ideas". They are more than that. The "idea" that men are called Mr, which in no way indicates marital status, should also translate to the idea that women should have a title which in no way indicates marital status.

To me it's not just an idea, it is a critical step towards a gender equality. Yes I do have friends who call themselves Mrs and I've never argued with them about it because I respect their point of view. But if I ran the world, Mrs and Miss would be in the bin. We could do away with Miss and Master as well unless there's a particular need to note that someone is under sixteen.

There is no chance of me running the world though Grin

LassUnparalleled · 06/08/2015 21:08

A school friend of mine over 35 years' ago realised walking down the aisle she was making a mistake. She and her husband never lived together, there are no children and they divorced as soon as they could after the 2 years were up.

She still calls herself Mrs His Name. I do not understand why. I occasionally wondered what he thought of it.

Original poster
LookAtMeGo · 06/08/2015 21:29

You are Mrs so that the world knows you are married. You weirdly called yourself Mrs before you were married, but everybody calling that would rightly assume that you were/had been married. There is no comparator for men. It is sexist.

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