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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Ms, Mrs,Miss

520 replies

LookAtMeGo · 05/08/2015 22:05

Apologies in advance, as I'm sure it has been done to death. But today I realised the truth of why I refer to myself as Mrs even though I'm divorced. My mum is divorced and told me as a child in response to me asking why she is still Mrs that it is so nobody judges her and she looks respectable (not her actual words, but that's what I got from the convo at the age of about ten)

Even as a highly educated professional, I still wanted to hold on to the title post-divorce and I feel pretty... I don't know... angry? Upset? Ashamed? I really don't know. All I know is I don't feel good, and I shall be Ms from now on.

Any thoughts? Is there something else I should be doing?

OP posts:
ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 06/08/2015 06:11

Loads of people off mumsnet believe Ms denotes divorced. I guess it's because loads of people can't fathom why women would care about their title denoting marital status and also because loads of people believe that titles are legally mandated so therefore have to be 'accurate' and a divorced woman is not 'legally' miss or Mrs.
Loads of people are quite thick though.

YonicScrewdriver · 06/08/2015 06:15

It doesn't say what to do if you prefer Ms, HAVE been married but haven't ever used another surname!

YonicScrewdriver · 06/08/2015 06:34

I don't think it's fair to say that people are thick, obsidian. If someone tells you that or you read it somewhere when quite young, you mightn't think about it in detail again.

YonicScrewdriver · 06/08/2015 06:39

Emily Post stating that if a divorced woman is using her maiden name again, she should be Ms.

www.emilypost.com/communication-and-technology/social-names-and-titles/292-the-qmrsq-question

LUKYMUM · 06/08/2015 07:04

I use Mrs because I also think it's none of anyone's business what my marital status is. I'm not married but it irritates me so much that men have no such inane titles.

It's interesting hearing about people using Ms for the same reason.

midnightvelvetPart2 · 06/08/2015 07:11

When I divorced I became a Ms immediately and changed my surname via deed poll to my mother's maiden name. Its an interesting question about identity, as I didn't want to be associated with exH any more but I didn't want to revert to my maiden name as that was my name when I was a child and teen and it didn't seem to fit who I felt I was, years later when I divorced. As my mother died very soon after I left the marriage it was a link to her and felt natural to do so.
I have a different name to my children and the school mums are a bit Shock and ask why, when they try to find me on fb and I'm not under the kids surname.
I'm still unsure about the origins of Ms, was it created so that women don't have to define their marital status on forms? Or was it designed to shame women by publicly designating them as divorced, and as a banner to proclaim that this woman has dared to oppose the accepted norm and is available to be judged freely.

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 07:18

It is just personal choice so do what you like. It is no big issue and not for others to judge. I am Mrs.

Iggi999 · 06/08/2015 07:26

Like so many other personal choices though it has an impact on other people and how they are perceived.

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 07:32

No it doesn't. It has impact if other people tell you what you should do.
Too many people make the right decision for themselves and think it right for everyone.
I am Mrs - can't stand Ms- it is my choice and doesn't have any bearing on anyone else. If someone is Ms I call them Ms. I expect the same courtesy back.

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 07:33

People can 'perceive' me how they like. They are probably wrong but I can't say it bothers me.

Iggi999 · 06/08/2015 07:34

Of course it does. Everyone who insists on being defined by marital status makes it more likely that I am asked to define myself in this way (or assumptions made that I then need to correct). Does this happen to men? Do they feel they are having the "choice" to use a title denoting marital status taken away from them?

Nolim · 06/08/2015 07:51

As someone already mention in the us ms is the default female tittle and i think it makes sense. I was astonished to find out that here in the uk it has a negative connotation, i remember that in another thread someone said something about ms being used by bitter divorcees and lesbian feminists Confused and some women felt insulted by not being adressed as miss or mrs.

Anyway i identify myself as ms mysurname. It never occur to me to change my surname.

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 07:54

Well if it does impact we can all do it my way!
However it doesn't work that way.
I couldn't care less if people think they know my marital status.
When I was a widow with a baby and I took my wedding ring off people still assumed I had a husband. They really don't notice these things.

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 07:55

Maybe some of you think it is superior to be married?

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 06/08/2015 07:59

I think you're missing the point mehitabel. Why would advocating a marital status-neutral title for all mean we think it's superior to be married?

And of course your choice to be Mrs affects other women. Not directly but obliquely. It doesn't mean you don't have a choice but choices don't exist in a vacuum.

Nolim · 06/08/2015 08:16

Midnightvelvet regarding the origin of ms wikipedia says:

"Ms." began to be used as early as the 17th century, along with "Miss" and "Mrs.", as a title derived from the then formal "Mistress", which, like Mister, did not originally indicate marital status.[6][7] "Ms.", however, fell into disuse in favor of the other two titles and was not revived until the 20th century.[8][9]

midnightvelvetPart2 · 06/08/2015 08:19

Thanks Nolim :)

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 08:24

I said it because people seem to,have a problem with Mrs and Miss. I can't see what is wrong with Miss - much nicer word and I Would stick to it if not married. Why would it bother me?

If it does impact then good! We can get rid of the dreadful Ms.
Personally I don't think it does and people are free to choose Ms.

Nolim · 06/08/2015 08:26

Why is ms dreadful but miss and mrs are ok mehitabel? It is an honest question.

YonicScrewdriver · 06/08/2015 08:30

Mehitabel, Mrs, Miss and Ms are all derivations of Mistress. I'd be happy if we were all Mistress, written Ms, just as all men are Mister, written Mr. I'd also be happy with all adult women being Missus/Mrs (as they are Madame in France and Frau in German). The ongoing existence of female titles that are linked to marital status is not a good thing, IMO.

Mehitabel6 · 06/08/2015 08:31

Personal choice. I didn't say it should be dreadful for anyone else.

YonicScrewdriver · 06/08/2015 08:32

Ms, depending on how you say it, rhymes with buzz, bzzz or Liz. I never hear any of those words described as dreadful, oddly.

YonicScrewdriver · 06/08/2015 08:33

"If it does impact then good! We can get rid of the dreadful Ms."

That rather sounds as though you think it's objectively dreadful, since you want to get rid of it!

Iggi999 · 06/08/2015 08:51

You say "Miss" is a nicer word and you would stick to it if not married - surely that's the point, why should you have to change your title when/if you marry? I just don't understand that.
I've never heard Ms being pronounced anything other than Mizz incidentally.

Cynara · 06/08/2015 09:11

I'm not married to DP, and we have a baby. During my pregnancy, we both changed our names by deed poll to a mutually agreed new surname. The baby has that surname too. We still use our original names at work, partly because they are the names that we're already known by, our certificates of qualification are in those names, and because we work at the same place and somehow it seems more professional not to advertise our personal relationship in our workplace.

We are both very, very happy with our decision to take a new 'family' name. It feels right, and avoids any issues of us splitting up and me bringing up a child with 'his' name. It will be his name, obviously, but it's also mine and although it is functionally no different to me taking his name on marriage, I feel very different about it because the name feels like my own as I chose it.

We have been astonished at the opposition that this had met with within our families. DP's mum cried, saying how upset she was that the baby wouldn't share her name (her married name, that is. Bizarre). My mum and dad just cannot understand it and don't want to have it explained to them. It's different so it's wrong. Infuriatingly, my very lovely and very conventional sister is about to get married and will take her husband's name. Apparently that's fine. I pointed out that as far as my parents are concerned, the outcome for us both is identical, i.e. Both daughters will have changed their surnames, both sets of grandchildren will have different surnames from my parents as a result, so it seems odd to approve of one means of getting to that result but not the other. They have absolutely no comprehension of the logic of that, they just cannot begin to follow me.

I shouldn't care, but it grates on me that they can't approve unless I follow a traditional path that (I feel) is designed to keep me in my place. We're trying to bring my son up as an egalitarian. We have to live by those principles in order to model them to him. I can't see why that's so controversial.

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