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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ms, Mrs,Miss

520 replies

LookAtMeGo · 05/08/2015 22:05

Apologies in advance, as I'm sure it has been done to death. But today I realised the truth of why I refer to myself as Mrs even though I'm divorced. My mum is divorced and told me as a child in response to me asking why she is still Mrs that it is so nobody judges her and she looks respectable (not her actual words, but that's what I got from the convo at the age of about ten)

Even as a highly educated professional, I still wanted to hold on to the title post-divorce and I feel pretty... I don't know... angry? Upset? Ashamed? I really don't know. All I know is I don't feel good, and I shall be Ms from now on.

Any thoughts? Is there something else I should be doing?

OP posts:
elephantoverthehill · 05/08/2015 23:23

It is really quite funny. My title on my bank details etc is Ms. I am a teacher so I am regularly called 'Miss', at one school, I worked in, all female teachers were addressed as 'Ma'am'. If a student asks me to clarify my name it becomes 'Mrs Elephant' somehow. I don't think it really matters. I have 3DCs my surname is not the same as any of theirs.

LassUnparalleled · 05/08/2015 23:26

Where did this idea that Ms means status divorced? I've never come across this anywhere except on Mumsnet.

You can't even blame the ever popular villain the patriarchy for that one.

It's perfectly acceptable and normal to keep your married name or go back to your own name so why on earth pick Ms because you think you have to show you are divorced?

What would you attach it to? Your original surname? Your married surname?

VelvetGreen · 05/08/2015 23:27

I recently got married and have retained Ms, and have been amazed at the resistance to it, especially from family who insist on calling me Mrs despite lengthy explanations. I think the op's admittance that she thought Mrs was an upgrade isn't that an uncommon pov. My dm said she always assumed that someone who was Ms was unmarried, like they didn't want to admit that they couldn't catch a man Hmm. She cannot understand why i think my marital status is no-one else's business. She certainly wears her married title as a badge of honour.

I did take dh's surname though, which may sound a bit counter-intuitive, but i was more than happy to get rid of my maiden name because of my very dysfunctional relationship with it's originator. Were things better between me and my parents then i may have felt more inclined to keep my maiden name. While it wasn't why i changed my name i have found that i do like having the same name as the family i've chosen rather than the one i was lumbered with. I realise that people who get on with their birth families may feel differently!

achieve6 · 05/08/2015 23:27

I'm afraid I don't understand why Miss and Mrs still exist.

it's the 21st century. Those boxes are usually there to denote gender, so why not just Mr and Ms? Men don't go about declaring their marital status. If it's about title and you want to be Colonel (I've done that!) or Professor, go right ahead. But when it's just a choice between Mr, Miss, Mrs or Ms, I look around expecting to see a "welcome to the 17th century" sign. I am honestly mystified by this.

BertrandRussell · 05/08/2015 23:32

"The discussion about it was interesting tho - DP had never really considered the inherent sexism in many of the wedding / marriage traditions."

But even after he did consider it he still wanted to keep his name? What will happen when you hVe children?

elephantoverthehill · 05/08/2015 23:34

Oh and just a word of warning, I reverted to my maiden name after divorce, 17 years ago. When my eldest DC applied for a student loan I had to apply to get a copy of my marriage certificate to prove my relationship to my son. The decree absolute was not good enough as it only had my 'married' name on it, or I had to send a change of name document. Who does a legal name change?

DevonLass70 · 05/08/2015 23:40

I'm 45, single and WANT to be called 'Miss'! The Tesco delivery driver called me 'Mrs' the other day, to which I replied "please don't marry me off!" Wink

I get more miffed if people assume because I am of a certain age, I must be married. Oh, and I was one of those who always thought 'Ms' meant the person had divorced, too.

LassUnparalleled · 05/08/2015 23:43

I'm afraid I don't understand why Miss and Mrs still exist

Nor do I. I'm not in the least persuaded by the "we all want to have the same family name argument". I've never understood what the issue is. I don't have the same surname as my son (actually wish I had used my name, it's much nicer than my husband's) It’s never been an issue.

We used to get class lists from the school with the names, addresses and phone numbers of all pupils in his year. I'd say less than half were Mr and Mrs Same name. There were female parent Misses, Mss, Drs and Profs.

AmeliaNeedsHelp · 05/08/2015 23:45

bertrand, he still wanted to keep his. He never had an opinion on me changing my name, and we had already agreed that DC would have the same name as me. But, yes, he sees his surname as very much part of his identity. Maybe it's because he has a boring first name but mine's more unusual. I think of myself as Amelia and he thinks of himself as James Shawcross. (Not real names obviously.)

I don't think he'd ever considered feminism until I raised it with him. But then again, I hadn't either. So I guess we're learning together.

Iggi999 · 05/08/2015 23:49

MrSlant, it's just Mizz, instead of Miss or Missus, not that hard to pronounce surely!
Long-term Ms here with original surname - dcs with a bit of each.

YonicScrewdriver · 05/08/2015 23:50

Not just MN, Lass...

answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080830044120AAPK0TB

NotJustaPotforSoup · 06/08/2015 00:02

I am perpetually intrigued by Lass' bubble. I'd love to experience it for a mini break.

LassUnparalleled · 06/08/2015 00:07

Thanks Yonic. 4 answers on Yahoo isn't convincing me beyond it being 4 people who have got it wrong.

I'm old enough to remember when it was first being talked about in the UK (around the time Cosmo had interesting things to say as opposed to being the rag it has been for many years)

The notion that someone dreamt up a title to show one is divorced is nonsense.

AmeliaNeedsHelp · 06/08/2015 00:13

lass I thought Ms meant divorced until I was 25. And I'm not stupid, I'd literally never met someone who was Ms and not divorced. It made sense in my head too - women's title told you if they were married or single, so of course there had to be one for divorced. Why the heck I wasn't questioning the fact that women's marital status is right there in their title I have no idea. Maybe I am stupid.

LassUnparalleled · 06/08/2015 00:18

Interesting comment Notjust

Possibly the world I live in is the same one as the commentators in this article. The one where people know what Ms means.

Funnily enough googling "what does Ms mean" didn't bring up a single result on the first page that it meant divorced.

The meaning of Ms, according to you

gu.com/p/jckb?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

LassUnparalleled · 06/08/2015 00:21

I thought Ms meant divorced until I was 25. And I'm not stupid, I'd literally never met someone who was Ms and not divorced

You quiz every one you meet on their marital status? Or did you just assume that? I'm married. I change between Ms and Miss.

achieve6 · 06/08/2015 00:22

I'm baffled by the idea that Ms was for divorcees
I'm 39. I think I knew as a teen that Ms was the equivalent of Mr and the first time I had to sign for something as an adult, that was who I was and since that age, 18, I've not had anyone query it.

In fact, I remember asking the lady at the bank why the others were necessary and she said " I'm with you but we have female customers who would be annoyed if the option was removed". I'm sad that 21 years later, that's still the case.

EBearhug · 06/08/2015 00:26

My mother always addressed letters to Ms E Bearhug - well, certainly since I went to university. I didn't receive many letters from her before then to know if she did it before, as we didn't usually write to each other while living in the same house... So I've never seen it as weird.

I do notice that I seem to have reached an age that when asked for a name, people seem to default to, "It's Mrs..." Although I've been dealing with one of our vendors over the last couple of weeks, and for the same problem ticket, I've mostly been addressed as Ms Bearhug, but also Mrs Bearhug, and twice as Mr Bearhug. Most of this after the first Mr occurrence, where I pointed out that I preferred not to use any title, and just addressing me as Emma was fine, but if they must use a title, then it's Ms.

For most occasions, even my sex isn't relevant, let alone my marital status. Apparently I can't have a bank account without a title - now, I can understand they might need to know whether I'm male or female for ID purposes, but this could be handled by a field marking M or F, not by a title. I am allowed a title-free bank card, though.

A friend at uni once had an absolute go at me for addressing a card to Mr & Mrs Smith - well, I knew she was Jane Smith, and he'd only ever been introduced as John, so I had no way of knowing he was John Brown rather than John Smith. Obviously, had I known, I would have addressed it differently. To this day (20 years on), I have no idea what his surname actually was, because she never actually imparted that information. I do try to address people as they prefer, but I do need to be told preferences and related information to do so.

And I've ranted many times about poor programming that means so many online forms won't let you have the option of no title, even if that's what you prefer.

LassUnparalleled · 06/08/2015 00:29

Thank you achieve. I'm baffled too. My recollection is it got traction in the late 60's and 70s in the UK. The era of Germaine Greer . The whole point of it was to not show marital status- why would one invent a title for being divorced?

Sapat · 06/08/2015 01:26

I kept my maiden name at work and for personal stuff (hairdresser, passport, doctor, dentist, bank account), so I am Ms maidenname (I preferred using Ms rather than miss when I turned 30, which is also when I had my first child). For family stuff (school, selling the house, bills, joint account) I am Mrs Marriedname.
I am also a Dr so I add that to the mix occasionally.

SonceyD0g · 06/08/2015 01:43

Been a Ms ever since I was old enough to,fill in my own forms. Still use my maiden name even tho I've been married a long while. DH assumed I would change my name and it irks him still occasionally. But no way why put yourself through the hassle. Don't get it? If it's so important for you to have the same name he can change his surname! I'm not that pedantic tho that when teachers call me Mrs DHs surname I don't have a strop. Even tho I sign all DCs letters Ms maiden name. Wish we could follow the French example and get rid of Miss and Mrs it's very outdated in my opinion

SenecaFalls · 06/08/2015 03:44

Some background on the origins of Ms.

www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/magazine/25FOB-onlanguage-t.html?_r=3&

YonicScrewdriver · 06/08/2015 05:38

Lass

I'm not stating it was invented for that purpose; I'm responding to your statement that only people on MN ever thought that was the meaning of the title by showing you some people on yahoo answers who thought the same.

Threads on yahoo answers tend to be reasonably short as they aren't discussions but information seeking; once an answer has been provided, people don't tend to carry on adding to the thread unless they disagree with the answer.

YonicScrewdriver · 06/08/2015 05:39

I too would prefer one title for adult women, Soncey!

YonicScrewdriver · 06/08/2015 05:57

This is interesting - rather than simply having an "other name - if any" box that applies to Mr and Ms, if selecting Ms as a title on the DBS check then you need to confirm separately that you've never been married. I understand the need to provide all surnames, I don't understand why only women need to provide further information on marital status if this can't be ascertained from their title.

See p5
www.sra.org.uk/documents/students/admission/dbs-notes.pdf

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