Taylor Swift vs Nicki Minaj

[MyChildDoesntNeedSleep]

Apologies if already discussed. I couldn't see a thread.

What are your thoughts on this debacle? I have always been a Taylor fan, but since reading limited newspaper articles went over to Minaj's side. But then I watched the bloody Anaconda video and I just thought ffs, wtaf?!

"I don't think all black women would thank you for claiming that Anaconda is an accurate representation off their sexuality either."

I don't think I did claim this? I certainly didn't mean to. I wasn't really commenting on what would or wouldn't be an accurate depiction of anyone's sexuality, just remarking that on this thread there is a lot of 'ew' and 'gross' and we even had 'whore', and it has all been about black women depicted sexually.

From memory, when for example Miley releases a video that troubles people, we tend to worry about how it is presenting her as 'too available' and the effect that might have on young girls. We worry about her reputation. I don't often see people calling her disgusting. Might just be me, but it's an area I keep an eye on, as I find that the words people use about things when they're not really thinking tend to give a good idea of general cultural ideas and standards.

Chalala I totally agree that Swift missed the point and was condescending.

Nicky Minge, eh?

Personally I prefer her to Taylor Slut.

Suggest you google the search terms "Miley Cyrus" and "disgusting" then shaska. Here are a few hits:

Miley Cyrus fans walk out of her 'vile and disgusting show'

Miley Cyrus is 'disgusting' says Joan Rivers

Dr Laura slams Miley Cyrus as disgusting piece of shit whore

NM has tweeted Marie Claire's take on it, which I think clarifies what Minaj was getting at. I agree with her - whilst I don't like any of the videos and think they all objectify women - I can see that others have been rewarded where she hasn't.

"To put it simply: When Britney Spears got naked and covered herself in sequins for Toxic, she was nominated for Best Music Video. When Emily Ratajkowski got naked next to Robin Thicke in Blurred Lines, he was nominated for Best Music Video. When Miley Cyrus stripped off and broke a million health and safety rules by riding a piece of construction equipment, she wasn't just nominated for Best Music Video of the Year - she won it. All of the above videos have been controversial, but they were acknowledged by the industry for their impact nevertheless.

But as soon as Nicki Minaj - whose black body deviates from Caucasian beauty standards - dares to own her own culture and dance in a similarly provocative fashion, it's glossed over and relegated to sideline categories of 'female' and 'hip hop'. Meanwhile, white artists who adopt black culture as their own continue to reap professional awards. And it's time to stop pretending that that's OK. "

I'm afraid I've not read the thread however, I did search for the video in question.
I switched it off at the point where a male voice was rapping(?) as she stuck her arse in the air whilst clenching her buttocks "My anaconda don't want none unless you got buns Hun.".

WTAF?

I don't think she has a leg to stand on, bitching about the isms in the music industry when she is shovelling out shit like that.

There is not a lot else to say as far as I'm concerned.

Nicely summed up cainIn

Does no one else also find it interesting that iconic white male musicians have notably sung about sex, drugs... even some very vile topics like abusing women and other misogynistic glories and they're still heralded as bastions of great music but when, say, Nicki Minaj, Azealia Banks, Rihanna and so on sing about wanting sex it's seen as absolutely worthless? You know I'd go as far as to say even when white women sing about sex (Ke$ha, Lady Gaga) it's the scourge of the music industry.

Nicky Minaj isn't singing about wanting sex in that one at least?
It's the faceless male with an unfeasably large cock singing about it, she just wants to have big enough 'buns' for him to 'want' her.

That's what all the teeny boppers will be seeing anyway.

She then tells Swift she should be speaking about this?

Nonsense.

Actually she does rap about wanting sex in Anaconda and she doesn't mention wanting to have big enough buns for him to want her at all? The chorus is a sample of MC Hammer (or someone!! who's the other one?) and the rest of the rap is about her own sexual relationships.

Also, she told Taylor Swift she should be talking about the racial double standard. There have been some good discussions on this thread about it that go beyond shock and awe about booty shaking.

I think Miley and Nicki and are as bad as each other.

My reaction to Anaconda has nothing to do with the portrayal of black sexuality, and everything to do with the portrayal of female sexuality - and Miley Cyrus is just as guilty of selling herself as a man toy.

She didn't mention the racial double standard, she mentioned skinny women. Black women aren't skinny?
Because my opinion of it doesn't match yours it's not 'good' and is 'shock and awe'.
Some debate.

Thanks Fauch, thought provoking posts.

However this bit So the idea of booty popping being entirely for men's pleasure is kind of taking the history of black women and analysing it via white feminism is undermined by the lyrics of the song in question. The song is not celebrating twerking as a black woman's dance, but as a way of titillating men. She is not pleasing herself.

Do black feminists not have the same issues with women being portrayed merely as sex objects?

They've made up now. Makes Katy Perry look even more of a douche for wading in

TAYLOR SWIFT: I thought I was being called out. I missed the point, I misunderstood, then misspoke. I'm sorry, Nicki.
@NICKIMINAJ

NICKI MINAJ ?@NICKIMINAJ
That means so much Taylor, thank you. @taylorswift13 ??????
5:26 PM - 23 Jul 2015

There ya go, then. All solved. No feminist cat fight. But maybe we could turn our attention to racism in the music industry?

Just for fun and entertainment here is a funny video that sums up what a lot of nonwhite people in the US are up against.

Cain Well that's not what I said, I said there have been some good discussions on this thread, which you claimed to have not read. And yes a lot of this thread has been people voicing shock and awe about booty popping, ignoring the fact black women aren't booty popping for you or your validation.

And the reference to different "kind" of artist and "other" artists clearly means if she were white, there's the retweet Nicki made about how annoyed you'd be if you didn't get a promotion at work because you're black, there's several more references to race on her timeline so I don't know why people are wilfully trying to evade that reality. Hmm.

swallowed I think it's more that Black female sexuality has always been performed differently to white female sexuality? And so it's very well for you to not be okay with it, I think it's also important to evaluate why many Black women ARE okay with it, ARE okay with booty popping and twerking and what it means to them?

Noble Oh absolutely we do! It's slightly different in that the problem is not only men sexualising us on a gender level but also on a racial level. I can chat about it in a PM if you wish but I fear I'll derail too much if I post it here. The first few chapters of Aint I A Woman address how this has occurred since slavery (I promise I don't have shares in that book!) and I'll happily chat about it if you can't get access to the book. But anyway, in terms of NM I don't wish to speak for all BW but I'll speak for me and how I see it.

The chorus sample is pretty much what it is. I often parody it by saying I don't have buns and don't give a shit that you don't want none - but then I think in this thread and elsewhere the song is made ONLY about the chorus when I think Nicki's verse give much more context. Mainstream media gives very little room for Black female sexual autonomy - or any kind of black female autonomy. We're mostly just props outside a few signature american TV shows.

So in the verses, she's rapping about the men she has sex with, essentially. Yup, lots of people won't like that but I'm okay with women wanting sex and saying it openly. I think that's healthy, but less wholesome than say - "romeo take me somewhere we can be alone, you'll be the prince and I'll be the princess". And I think Black feminists are celebrating this move towards not being props and they're/we're celebrating Black women singing about their sexuality openly in a society with a long history of raping, disparaging and dehumanising Black women, their bodies and their sexuality. Being able to celebrate it in a video without the presence of men - except Drake, who is known for having a massive crush on Nicki and being repeatedly declined. He is the man at the end who she rejects and leaves hanging. And I think that's another part of it. It's very sexual and the cream is titilating, and men do get off on it - but that's not the purpose. The purpose, when you consider the lyrics, the Drake rejection, the context and the explanations that have been given about the making of the video, is to say "I'm not a prop, I have my own sexual desires and I'm a sexual person, but I'm not yours" which sounds a bit bullshit I know, and like I'm reading too much into it, but it's very clear what Nicki's politics are and this really is no accident.

And you know, I won't deny that the MC Hammer sample confuses a lot of this message and I don't care about what a man wants. But it's pop music, it's not perfect and I'll overlook the catchy-but-bullshit hook because the rest is worth it. Sorry for the length!

Cain - that made me lol.

Just wondering if you know about the "Baby got back" reference?

I am also someone who wishes the Miley Cyrus, Robin Thicke, types would just go away. I have no idea why they are rewarded either. I guess I'd say yet more wrongs aren't going to make a right?

I would still be less confused if she didn't have any nominations at all but she does - and these things are subjective.

"I'm not a prop, I have my own sexual desires and I'm a sexual person, but I'm not yours" which sounds a bit bullshit I know, and like I'm reading too much into it, but it's very clear what Nicki's politics are and this really is no accident.

No, not BS, that's how I take it.

I also read into some defiance towards other women, white women, who police the beauty standard for all and declare large bottoms vulgar, because generally, they don't have them!

@what agreed, but it's not even just white women or modern critics. Think about how Saartjie Bartman was an actual human exhibit because of her "exaggerated" sexual characteristics! She was literally seen as not human because of her body and I don't think attitudes like that died away with the abolition of slavery and MLK.

Rather they develop, much like how few would call rap and hip hop the devil's music in today's day, but it's impossible to watch Dreamgirls or Memphis and not see a similarity between how early Black music that was derided before being co opted by white musicians and turned into Western cultural staples and how rap and hip hop seen as everything wrong with the world unless it's made by Macklemore or Iggy Azalea.

I have no feelings either way about black women's bottoms.

But can't Nicki have her bottom any which way she likes without slathering it with baby oil and humping a fence in a way which makes young impressionable girls think that this is what women have to do to be regarded as attractive?

Have your bum any which way you want, but I don't really want it to be waved in mine, or my daughter's face.

I don't think MN displays properly on my ipad - Cain, when I said you had made me lol, I meant your first, and at the time I replied, no other posts were shown underneath? Confusing.

Glad they sorted it out

Controversially I don't really think Nicki owes it to anyone to be a model of respectable attractiveness.

It's well researched that Black girls grow up believing they're unattractive and ugly and many studies which find that people will consistently vote us the least attractive, least desirable group of women. So "young impressionable girls" are probably not getting messages of what's desirable from Nicki or Rihanna. In fact Anaconda didn't even spark any trends to do with dancing or how to perform that kind of sexuality.

And fine if you don't want to see it! You don't like it or approve, that's fine! It doesn't take away from the value it has to other women though.

But Fauch it's not like you can easily avoid it.

All this stuff informs popular culture and you do see it, often in insidious and watered down ways in everyday youth culture.

I have a year 2 child in my class who watches MTV (yes, I wouldn't let her either but evidently her parents do). I had to speak to her during a dance lesson as she was using "props" (chairs, tables and the wall) to writhe around and against. It was a crude 7 year old's imitation of the soft porn stuff she's seen on the TV. And the other girls who haven't seen it watch her and copy.

I'm not asking for us to go back to the days when teachers used a ruler to measure the distance between you and the boy you were dancing with at the disco, but can't we have good songs with good videos by mainstream artists which don't depict women as porn stars?

No no, I agree with that and I sort of knew that when I wrote it. It's true you can't avoid it - although that's more an issue of the ubiquity of pop culture and brands and celebrity. I can't claim to be old enough to know a time when we weren't saturated with constant images like that, but I think it's a battle that's bigger than us and bigger than the artists.

I don't think kids should be so exposed to explicit media, not at all, although I think explicit media (as long as it's not awful in all the ways explicit media can be - violence, misogyny, racism etc) should be able to exist and it's expliciticiticiticity (??) always doesn't invalidate the merits it does have

Luckily there are wholesome/family friendly vids and I think Taylor Swift is one of those artists. She's nice to fans and her songs usually are safe-for-family.

"Really interesting post Fauch, thank you. You're right that my analysis of twerking would see it as something like a lap dance, ie something sexy for the male gaze. I'll have to do some digging into the history, as always eager to learn not to make these mistakes."

Right, so in that Anaconda video there is a man sat in a chair, and there's a woman rubbing her arse against his lap and shaking it in his face.

How is this different to lap dancing? I thought that was what lap dancing was.

Although actually she crawls across the floor first, to get to the man sat on the chair, which is above and beyond the job description of a lap dance, I assume.

I'm pretty sure I'm not reading a sex work meaning into it because of the ethnicity of the artist.