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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Taylor Swift vs Nicki Minaj

220 replies

MyChildDoesntNeedSleep · 22/07/2015 21:16

Apologies if already discussed. I couldn't see a thread.

What are your thoughts on this debacle? I have always been a Taylor fan, but since reading limited newspaper articles went over to Minaj's side. But then I watched the bloody Anaconda video and I just thought ffs, wtaf?!

OP posts:
achieve15 · 22/07/2015 22:58

oh yes, she did, I just saw that on Twitter. But if that's how she felt it came across, can she not call that out?

I should probably bow out now because "culture appropriation" is a topic that totally loses me.

cigarsofthepharaoh · 22/07/2015 23:00

MyChild I don't appreciate being told I'm not a feminist just because I disagree with you...

Achieve I'll accept "using" might not have been the best word. Maybe "ignoring"? Her feminism seems to be quite shallow and 'woo girl-power!' (as her response to Minaj shows), and she completely ignores the fact that she's massively benefitted from being a white skinny music artist, however rebellious she tries to portray herself as.

Original poster
MyChildDoesntNeedSleep · 22/07/2015 23:07

nm's vid is soft porn. Ts's vid is a bunch of supermodels twirling around.

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Original poster
MyChildDoesntNeedSleep · 22/07/2015 23:08

Both are pleasing to the eye in different ways Confused

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sliceofsoup · 22/07/2015 23:09

See, when I read Nickys tweet, it doesn't really say race to me, she mentions "women with very slim bodies". But knowing what happened with Kanye in 2009, and from reading about stuff surrounding this (there was a twitter spat recently between two women I can't recall the names off right now, centered around similar issues) I can see that Nicky was probably referencing skinny white girls without saying as much.

Then Taylor takes it personally and yells feminism, and then she gets accused of white feminism, because, well, she is white, and skinny and she encapsulates the whole issue somehow.

I am a bit lost with it all too though.

MarchLikeAnAnt · 22/07/2015 23:11

Good for NM for pointing out that skinny white women with pancake asses are not the only sexy, desirable and appreciated body type. She is defiantly pointing out that her large bum is not something she is ashamed of, but proud of

But her ass is fake Confused if you look at old photos over her she had a very flat ass. She hates her true body type.

KevinKnowsImMiserableNow · 22/07/2015 23:11

Meanwhile the blokes are laughing about the whole thing

Original poster
MyChildDoesntNeedSleep · 22/07/2015 23:12

Women are behind all the other second class citizens for a reason. They just can't see it, and are happy with their lot.

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sliceofsoup · 22/07/2015 23:15

and she completely ignores the fact that she's massively benefitted from being a white skinny music artist

But see, this is where I get lost. I don't understand how it is acceptable to claim that Taylors success is massively down to her skin colour.

Don't get me wrong, I do see an issue with culture appropriation, and I do accept the argument for the existence of white feminism and bias in the industry. But when did it become ok for people like Kanye West and Nicky Minaj who are hugely successful to attack Taylor Swift and then call her racist or self centered if she stands up for herself?

Are any other white artists being called out? Having their stages crashed? Being mentioned by stealth on twitter? That is a genuine question. Are there?

Original poster
MyChildDoesntNeedSleep · 22/07/2015 23:16

Have we ever seen a male version of the Anaconda video?!

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achieve15 · 22/07/2015 23:19

cigars " however rebellious she tries to portray herself as."

and here was me thinking TS tries to portray herself as wholesome. Perception is all I guess.

MyChild "Women are behind all the other second class citizens for a reason. They just can't see it, and are happy with their lot"

that's lost me too sorry Confused

I do think that the media and to some extent this thread, have made a hell of a lot from comments that were put into 140 characters, some of which were emoticons.

Me and my huge ass need to go to bed now Grin

MarchLikeAnAnt · 22/07/2015 23:19

NM and TS are both awful, I can't see how they are in any way feminist.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 22/07/2015 23:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LassUnparalleled · 22/07/2015 23:25

Managed to listen to just over 1 minute of each. As music they are both awful.

As videos the Minaj one is ghastly. The other one was unoriginal and it's got Lena Dunham in it but is marginally less awful than Minaj's.

Original poster
MyChildDoesntNeedSleep · 22/07/2015 23:28

achieve you've lost me too. I have no idea what we are talking about.

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WhattodowithMum · 22/07/2015 23:29

I don't think NM was calling out TS. I think NM was calling out a whole industry that treats her as niche rather than normal. TS made a fool of herself by jumping in and assuming NM's understandable frustration was about her. I think NM is suffering real racism, and when she pushed back on that I don't think she needed to stop and see how this might make TS feel. I don't think TS was on her mind at all.

Also the attitude in the U.S. that black women's bodies are vulgar and some sort of burleseque joke is a feminist issue. Good for NM celebrating curves and casting them in the light of "sex goddess" rather than "clown."

achieve15 · 22/07/2015 23:32

MyChild, happy to clarify whatever I said that lost you...?

Buffy - I liked the TS video for the structure, the style, the cultural references (two of the characters being from Law & Order) the general styling, the mickey taking with the knifed teddy being blown to bits at the end and the use of the London skyline. I also like this version better than the album version - both great, but on a musical note I do like what Kendrick Lamar added to it.

achieve15 · 22/07/2015 23:34

this article and the comments cover most of the references, but probably not all - I'm sure she's packed in a bunch of stuff I don't know about

io9.com/all-the-crazy-science-fiction-references-in-taylor-swif-1705145757

WhattodowithMum · 22/07/2015 23:39

I think this article pretty much nails it
www.salon.com/2015/07/22/10_questions_taylor_swift_could_have_asked_herself_before_picking_a_fight_with_nicki_minaj/

It's important to remember this is happening in a U.S. context which isn't exactly the same as Britain, though the are lots of commonalities between the cultures.

noblegiraffe · 22/07/2015 23:40

If NM's issue was one of race then why did her tweets not reference race, rather 'other girls' and girls with slim bodies?

I think it's understandable that TS concluded it was a dig at her, given that her video was nominated. NM did appear to be pitting women against women. If she meant white girls, why did she say 'other'? Confused

WhattodowithMum · 22/07/2015 23:52

Noble the nuances and norms about race and how to talk about it are slightly different in America. I don't want to present myself as an expert on 300 million individuals, but I think most Americans would read what she said as race, not personal to TS. Certainly most of the U.S. based opinion seems to have read it that way.

I do think NM was saying that if an artist panders to white norms, standards, and ideas of beauty, they will be rewarded. And, her Anaconda video was very aggressively sticking two fingers up to that. Good for her.

cigarsofthepharaoh · 22/07/2015 23:57

Her success isn't due to her colour - she has a marketable brand of genuine, dorky and faux-anti-establishment. But I can't imagine the general American market buying that on a black woman. Anti-establishment is scary when it's black; genuine means "ghetto"; and dorky is just not viable.

There are quite a few similarities between Rihanna's BBHMM and Taylor's Bad Blood - women fighting other women, scantily clad (although there are obvious differences). Yet Rihanna's (which did seem to have a message at least, even if it was gratuitously conveyed) is denigrated, while Taylor's (which has no real message except that girls fall out and look hot fighting) is applauded.

She benefits because her brand works on her, as a white woman, whereas it wouldn't be marketable on a black woman.

noblegiraffe · 23/07/2015 00:06

That subtlety went over my head, whattodo then so thanks for the explanation. I guess it went over TS's too, she would understandably be hypersensitive to any suggestion that she took an award/slot which should have gone to a black woman.

sliceofsoup · 23/07/2015 00:10

I feel that Bad Blood, the song, the video and the hype, let Taylor down. She certainly went down in my estimations.

It was written about Katy Perry. And the "show of strength" of having all her mates in the video was very mean girls. Bully tactics.

The mechanics may have been outstanding, and may well deserve an award, but the message behind it all was immature.

MistressChalk · 23/07/2015 00:18

I liked Nicki Minaj, I always thought that she was edgy and ironic but pretty much a feminist at heart. I don't even have a problem with Anaconda really. Then this song came out....

Yes I'll be your woman
Yes I'll be your baby
Yes I'll be whatever that you tell me when you ready
Yes I'll be your girl, forever your lady
You ain't never gotta worry, I'm down for you baby

Best believe that when you need that
Ill provide that you will always have it
I be on deck keep it in check
When you need that I'mma let you have it

Be my woman girl, and I'll be your man
Be my woman girl, and I'll be your man

Yes I do the cooking
Yes I do the cleaning
Yes I keep the nana real sweet for your eating
Yes you be the (boss) yes I be respecting
Whatever that you tell me cause its game you be spitting

Best believe that when you need that
Ill provide that you will always have it
I be on deck keep it in check
When you need that I'mma let you have it

Make sure that hes getting his share
Make sure that his baby take care
Make sure mama crawls on her knees keep him pleased rub him down be a lady and a freak, oh