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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Taylor Swift vs Nicki Minaj

220 replies

MyChildDoesntNeedSleep · 22/07/2015 21:16

Apologies if already discussed. I couldn't see a thread.

What are your thoughts on this debacle? I have always been a Taylor fan, but since reading limited newspaper articles went over to Minaj's side. But then I watched the bloody Anaconda video and I just thought ffs, wtaf?!

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 23/07/2015 11:43

Is there lots of talk about how disgusting black female sexuality is? Or just how horrible the video is? Would it have got a different response if Miley had made it? (substitute twerking for some other sexualised dance to avoid appropriation of black culture issues).

MarchLikeAnAnt · 23/07/2015 11:43

What does "her version of sexuality" actually mean?

cloudsandrain · 23/07/2015 12:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GlitzAndGigglesx · 23/07/2015 12:08

There was plenty of talk on the nature of Miley's videos too when they were released - y'know the skinny rich white girl

TheXxed · 23/07/2015 12:21

This thread is fucking depressing but then again white feminism generally is, for context black women's bodies are brutalised, attacked and ridiculed. Our featured are only deemed attractive or worthy when white women have them.
jezebel.com/we-need-to-talk-about-butt-selfie-queen-jen-selter-1563509079

Nicki Minajs video is revolutionary because everything in society tells black women they should hate themselves, that our value is measured in our proximity to whiteness.

Missy Elliots videos also contained hot black women dancing, years and years are a bland boring imitation of early 90s house music.

MarchLikeAnAnt · 23/07/2015 12:32

Nicki Minajs video is revolutionary because everything in society tells black women they should hate themselves, that our value is measured in our proximity to whiteness

You can't be serious.

MarchLikeAnAnt · 23/07/2015 12:36

By that I mean that I don't see how NM video is positive in any way shape or form.

KevinKnowsImMiserableNow · 23/07/2015 12:37

Who caress about years and years, the point I was making is about Kate Bush Hmm

I don't think all black women would thank you for claiming that Anaconda is an accurate representation off their sexuality either.

TheXxed · 23/07/2015 12:39

March I am very serious. If you would like to read up on how the depiction of black women's bodies is politicised I can suggest bell hooks and Sylvia wynter.

TheXxed · 23/07/2015 12:41

March I am very serious if you would like to read up on how societies depiction of blacks women's bodies is politicised I can suggest bell hooks and Sylvia wynter.

TheXxed · 23/07/2015 12:43

Kevin I didn't say it was an accurate representation.Hmm

Also I don't really care for Kate bush.

KevinKnowsImMiserableNow · 23/07/2015 12:44

I didn't say you did X I was responding to Shaka

KevinKnowsImMiserableNow · 23/07/2015 12:45

Sorry the post does read as though I was responding to you on that point, on my phone and can't scroll properly. That point was meant for Shabaka

KevinKnowsImMiserableNow · 23/07/2015 12:46

Shaska!

MarchLikeAnAnt · 23/07/2015 12:54

I understand that NM is suffering from racism but just object that her video is positive for black women/any other colour of woman IYSWIM. I detest TS and all other crappy music singers like that, their videos are not positive in any way either. They should be band Grin

I will have a Google of those names..

noblegiraffe · 23/07/2015 13:08

I watched the Anaconda video and found it depressing that once again we have a young girl getting her kit off and waving her body in a man's face and calling it empowering.

Nicki Minajs video is revolutionary because everything in society tells black women they should hate themselves, that our value is measured in our proximity to whiteness.

The problem with the video is that it is not revolutionary, because once again it tells women that their value is measured in their ability to give a man an erection.

Chalalala · 23/07/2015 13:10

I find this thread depressing too. It doesn't matter if you think the video is gross/immoral/whatever. NM has every right to be surprised it wasn't nominated, because it was a hugely popular video with a huge impact on popular culture.

The point is that rightly or no, NM talked about discrimination against black women. The emphasis was on the race discrimination, and TS completely missed that. Which is why she's coming across as privileged and self-absorbed.

I'll have a lot more respect for TS if she can admit that her response was tone-deaf.

noblegiraffe · 23/07/2015 13:18

Is there discrimination against black women if Beyonce's video was shortlisted?

MarchLikeAnAnt · 23/07/2015 13:20

Beyonce is much more European looking than NM though.

Chalalala · 23/07/2015 13:24

noblegiraffe

it doesn't matter whether NM was right about race discrimination, the point is that she was talking about race.

but to answer your question... one example isn't enough to negate the point. There are a few women CEOs around, it doesn't mean there's no gender discrimination in the workplace.

Fauchelevent · 23/07/2015 13:33

Another black woman here who finds this thread depressing but not surprising. I expect this will be long and I'm preparing to be heavily criticised but here's how I see it

I like maybe a few of NM's songs so I'm not a superfan here, but anyone who wishes to go beyond slamming Nicki for her sexuality will find that she often points out and addresses double standards and discrepancies around race and gender. She knows her history and context and I see Anaconda as a continuation of that. I really dislike the usual white mainstream feminism analysis of Anaconda because it lacks SO much context and nuance around sexuality and black feminism. Yes, not all black women will be impressed or even like what Nicki Minaj has done, but that doesn't detract from the fact that there is a history and context that goes beyond "booty shaking whore".

Firstly, booty popping and twerking goes beyond titilating men - similar and sometimes identical dances are done in Zambian and other African dances. Many Black cultural practices that have been derided since, well, forever (think about how rock n roll was the devil's music until it was co opted by white musicians and now rock n roll has become white music, think about how rap and black musicians are talked about now, whereas white musicians who do the same - mackleless, iggy, eminem - are fawned over.) are actually rooted in cultural practices from Africa.

So the idea of booty popping being entirely for men's pleasure is kind of taking the history of black women and analysing it via white feminism (ie; without taking into account racial context) which doesn't work. Women of all races, but specific to this thread, black women and white women have distinctly different histories and whilst we can unite over some similar struggles, a lot of the time you really can't analyse the way BW perform sexuality and feminism in the same way you can with white women.

Black feminism is quite different, and I think this is why mainstream white feminism often fails black girls and women - it doesn't apply any nuance or context to why black feminism might look different to what white feminists have considered acceptable for themselves.

So going back to this, many people lose sight of what Anaconda represents to a lot of Black women (not all!) because they see booty shaking and rap and dismiss it and see no value in it whatsoever. Yes, NM probably had a lot of direction from men, but for many BW it was important in ways other people won't quite get. And because of this, it doesn't get the recognition it deserves - both as a successful youtube video, a talking point of 2015 and something that's important to Black women. And as I stated before, let's not pretend white mainstream media has not, from jump, worked very hard not to recognise the merits of the work of Black women. THIS is what Nicki is getting at. Taylor Swift is a bit of a red herring because this had nothing to do with her.

Fauchelevent · 23/07/2015 13:38

Gosh that was long.

Noble Beyond Beyoncé being more lightskinned, she's also a lot less non-threatening in the same way that Taylor Swift is non-threatening. Beyoncé doesn't swear lots and hasn't shaken a booty in years, she isn't explicit and her feminism is one that most people can get behind. I think that's worked a lot in her favour.

March Aint I A Woman is a good book relevant to this topic if you want to have a read.

MistressDeeCee · 23/07/2015 13:57

4. I think Minaj is absolutely correct in her belief that Anaconda's omission from the nominations is rooted in popular culture's habit of overlooking black artists, but rewarding white artists who draw on black culture for inspiration.

^ this is certainly true. Minaj knows what she is talking about here

I detest the use of the word "whore" when describing women. When is it EVER necessary? Biscuit

WhattodowithMum · 23/07/2015 14:59

Well put Fauch.

VivaLeBeaver · 23/07/2015 15:07

Maybe Swifts video was just better?

I can't stand Nicky Minge but quite like Swift.