sexualisation of children vs slut shaming

[bikeandrun]

My DD is y6, having a great time with a fancy dress parades and final party. Being having lots of discussions with other mums and my mum about what the girls have been wearing. Finding my responses to this difficult
" cant believe mums let their daughters out of the house dressed like that" response to crop tops, mini skirts, lots of slap high heels etc

"girls don't understand the effect they have on men when they dress like that" this was aimed at a girl in dds year who has obviously gone through puberty and has a woman's body
Are just a few quotes I have heard
As a young single woman i used to enjoy dressing in an extreme and sexual way and felt empowered and confident.BUT

These girls are not sexual beings yet but is it slut shaming or just protective parenting to not want 11 year olds to dress like this.

I persuaded dd to wear converse rather than high heels mainly cos I know she wanted to jump around like a manic but I also really didn't like how she looked in those heels.
Help me find a feminist way through these feeling as I support my daughter as she grows into a woman

Women have been sex objects for as long as we can think, surely, and are in every society in the world?

And yes I think it is too much of a leap to think a 10yo wants adult men to try to fuck her what are you thinking?

We are going in circles, I don't want my daughter to have to fight this battle until she is of the age of consent. She is too young I don't want her to be called a slut, I want to protect her. Sorry it is what it is, I am all for changing the norm but I have my child to think of.

I don't think that but others clearly do!! FFS, can I not want my daughter to not be tarred with that brush.

& actually many women don't want general "sexual attention" they want it from people they are attracted to as well. Some women like sexual attention generally of course, but many women find attention from random men really fucking annoying. (Intimidating / upsetting / angering / whatever).

There is nothing wrong with wanting to protect your child captain. But at the same time you will be educating her about the world and what you teach her is important.

I think there's more to be said about Whirlpool's posting which included:
'A 10yo rolling up her skirt for school isn't (usually) having a thought process of "Men find long legs on women sexy. I want boys (and men) to find me sexually attractive, I want them to want to fuck me. So I am going to roll my skirt up".'

A 10 year old wouldn't (let's hope) have any thoughts about what adult men would call "sexy". But she might have a very good concept of what older girls do that causes them to be admired, and she might also have an idea of what's considered transgressive for her, and therefore, from a child's perspective, fun to do. She might even call this behaviour "sexy" though I doubt if she'd say "sexually attractive" even if she understood what it meant.

So maybe the kids are putting on a performance that they enjoy, without the life experience that would let them understand the social messages that clothing sends out. Adults see what the girls are doing, and we respond with all kinds of conflicted thoughts, about freedom, about what sexual attractiveness really means, about what it's fair to expect a child to do and what we ought to be protecting a child from--could we be wanting to protect ourselves from our own unease?

Whirlpool also said "anyone who thinks that adult men are liable to assault female children just because they've got a certain type of shoe on is deluded". Yes, true, but could we say that seeing a child in sexy shoes (if that's the specific item) builds up the impression that children are sexually desirable. Of course children want to emulate adults, but I think there's value in keeping a boundary between what's part of the adult world and the child's world. Maybe that's part of our discomfort with all this--it's having to intrude on children's lives with thoughts of adult sexual behaviour.

Of course I will educate her and that's why she won't be wearing it until she is old enough to buy it for herself and therefore old enough to know what she is doing.

I don't think you have to buy a 7 year old a basque to start the ball rolling.

I don't think that it is clothes that build up an impression that children are sexually desirable. I think that is a story as old as the hills, no matter what the child is wearing.

I don't think that a man who is attracted to adult women is going to develop sexual attraction for 9yo just because they see them in certain clothes.

Same as I don't think a gay man is going to start fancying women if they see lots of scantily clad women - because they do, and they're still gay.

Who is buying their 7yo a basque

And if the 7yo is unfortunate enough to be accessible by a paedophile, then her clothing won't make a single jot of difference.

Why would anyone buy a 7 year old a basque?? What I mean in terms of educating ks, are you going to tell your daughter not to wear 'provocative' clothing as it might get her raped?

& if a 7yo is in a basque, I don't think that will make her (never him) sexually attractive to people who are attracted to 7yo anyway.

might be going off on a tangent with this, but my main bugbear about sexualised girls' clothing (by sexualised I mean tight/revealing etc) is that it's totally impractical. Rather than causing me any concerns about my daughter being sexualised, it bothers me that it encourages her to be helpless. You can't run around and play in high heels or flimsy shoes with ridiculously slippy soles. Short shorts result in sunburn/more scratches from outdoor play. There are no pockets for useful things. It encourages female children to play a less active, passive role from the sidelines.

That's not a message I want my DD internalising. Clothes/makeup can be fun and a great form of self-expression, but they should not hold any child back.

"Are you going to tell your daughter not to wear 'provocative' clothing as it might get her raped?" No you're not, but you're likely to tell her something, and that's what this thread is about. But nothing seems right.

No im going to explain that because women wear that kind of clothing for sexual reasons, and a lot of people think that those who wear it are sluts. And therefore they may think you are a slut. There is a time and a place and it is not now. We can discuss anything you like about it dd, the rights and wrongs and how it's unfair and your friends all do it. But no, I will not buy it for you.

The thing I'll tell my DD is that the world wants to make her into an object to be looked at and judged and taken. But she's not an object, she's a person and if she wants to wear hotpants or a full length skirt that's her choice. People might call her a slut, but they are the ones who are in the wrong.

She will hate me I am sure but I am her mum not her friend. By the time she is a teenager she can buy that sort of clothing with her pocket money and persuade her dad and me she is aware of what she is doing when wearing it out, and then she can go out in it.

I round rather spend my time teaching her she doesn't have to be a sex object or dress like one. That she doesn't have to fit into society stereotype I certainly won't encourage it.

When you say 'aware of what she is doing' - what is she doing? Surely she's just wearing clothes?

Are you dim? I am banging my head here! That society thinks it makes her a slut! That men of all ages (and not just the boy she fancies) might think she's worth a crack. Because some men will and not a small proportion either. And no I know she is unlikely to be raped. Sexually harassed, groped? Maybe. I'll leave you to put your daughter on the front line of fighting injustices against women and I'll make do with a stroppy preteen who thinks I'm unfair.

Do you honestly think what a woman wears plays a part in whether she's sexually assaulted or not?

I am pretty sure that most 10 year olds have encountered porn, are using sexual language, some are even asking for naked pictures from the opposite sex. If you think that girls of this age are not partly dressing this way because that is how women dress to please men then you are naïve. I also think that boys who see girls of their own age dressing like that will also think that the girls are being sexual in some way. They may expect the girls to act in a certain way, and the girls may think they do to. I don't think they understand what they are doing or have any intention of wanting sex, but think they should act like it because grown-ups do in porn. But that goes beyond clothing, but clothing is the signal IMO that you are up for it.

If I recall my own teenage years, whenever I went out in inappropriate clothing with my friends, we often encountered men. Yes I have been groped, yes I have had sexual comments thrown at me. Funnily enough it didn't really happen when I was dressed in my jeans and baggy tops.

If you have never encountered it then you are lucky.

I have just remembered how my friend and I at 15 were mistaken for 18 year olds, because yes we were dressed in sexual clothing. But this was only after we had got into the back of some guys car and had been driven half way across town. Thankfully he just took is straight back to the park much to our disappointment. It was about 8.30pm in the evening. My mother thought I was on a sleepover.

I've been raped, multiple times. I was never wearing 'provocative' clothing.

Do you believe that women who wear 'provocative' clothing invite sexual assault?

So a guy drove you home? What's that got to do with what you were wearing?

All I know is that when I wear sexual clothing, I get sexual attention. The only time I have ever been groped has been when I have worn sexual clothing. I know it happens when women don't wear sexual clothing, but I do think some men think that because you dress like a slut you are one and perhaps are up for a bit of a squeeze.