sexualisation of children vs slut shaming

[bikeandrun]

My DD is y6, having a great time with a fancy dress parades and final party. Being having lots of discussions with other mums and my mum about what the girls have been wearing. Finding my responses to this difficult
" cant believe mums let their daughters out of the house dressed like that" response to crop tops, mini skirts, lots of slap high heels etc

"girls don't understand the effect they have on men when they dress like that" this was aimed at a girl in dds year who has obviously gone through puberty and has a woman's body
Are just a few quotes I have heard
As a young single woman i used to enjoy dressing in an extreme and sexual way and felt empowered and confident.BUT

These girls are not sexual beings yet but is it slut shaming or just protective parenting to not want 11 year olds to dress like this.

I persuaded dd to wear converse rather than high heels mainly cos I know she wanted to jump around like a manic but I also really didn't like how she looked in those heels.
Help me find a feminist way through these feeling as I support my daughter as she grows into a woman

I am of course talking about adult women. For children you keep your assumptions to your self

Your friend just sounds creepy JAPAB.

Even if he'd thought the child was older than she was, how much older did he think she was? 18, 19? How old is he?

He obviously thought you'd be open to a bit of male-bonding over objectifying a very young woman's body.

Eeeeuw, quite frankly. Creepy, creepy, creepy.

#Womencansee. And it's revolting.

That would be a legitimate point whether I was a man or a woman, if I was speculating on any specific individual woman. All any of us can do then is draw inferences or make assumptions, which may or may not be correct for this one person. Not sure I have been doing that however, just by stating that something is possible in response to a blanket statement about women.

Given the amount of women and girls who have said they don't like random sexual comments from random men or being judged on what they wear, not just here but in society in general, it makes more sense to start with the assumption that young girls and women are just dressing to please themselves for whatever reason instead of assuming shorts or whatever are an invitation for random men to make sexual comments on their bodies.

Yes Basil, I actually wrote a post asking Japab, how the conversation would have gone if the girl was 16 but deleted because I couldn't get the wording right.

I just wondered if pointing she was 14, meant that had she been 16 then such comments were ok, or that they would have agreed with him and joined in.

Something else struck me, this "power" people are claiming that women have, just by having bodies.

By insisting that men getting boners about women, is actually an example of women's "power" you're achieving 3 things:

1. Ignoring that the vast majority of power in the world, is held by men. The women who have real power (not just nice bosoms which might encourage some men to have erections) are women like Theresa May, Hilary Clinton, Angela Merkel, none of whom got their power by sexually exciting men.

1. Making women responsible for men's sexual responses to us. Brad Pitt is fucking gorgeous. Really fucking gorgeous. Does that give him the same sort of "power" over women, that a 14 year old in a short skirt is supposed to have over men? Does anyone suggest that he's a danger to himself because of this power?

1. Re-inventing the idea of power for women as something which is incredibly dangerous. The whole point of power for men, is that it makes them safer, more secure, more able to relax and be comfortable, not more at risk of violence and attack. The idea that a child of 11 (or 12, or 14) has power and yet is made more likely to be violently attacked by a grown man because of that power, is beyond fucked-up. The mental contortions it takes, to re-interpret what power actually is, in order to absolve men for their violence and blame girls for men's violence against them, are quite considerable. Lots of people manage it though. That's rape culture for ya.

There are probably lots of other things you're achieving with that silly idea that I can't think of right now, but those are the first 3 that spring to my mind.

"No, loony feminism is pretending that we live in a rarified cultural vacuum where people can somehow do and wear whatever they want without judgement or even mildly-negative reactions from others. And then getting very pissy and accusatory when perfectly reasonable people point out that no, actually, we don't live in such a vacuum and we never will."

I absolutely agree. That would be really really loony feminism.

And I've simply never come across it. No feminist I've ever met has ever suggested such a thing, on any site I've ever been on.

It's something made up by people who don't pay attention to what feminists actually say, they just like thinking we think mad things like that. Sorry to disappoint.

"Men whistle less from scaffolding because they are now likely to get a humiliating riposte in front if their peers"

No, I reckon it's because they are now likely to have a complaint against them which will go on their record and possibly lose them their job in the right circumstances (like they're already on a warning, for example).

(Can you tell I've been reading this thread all evening? )

AskBasil
Even if he'd thought the child was older than she was, how much older did he think she was? 18, 19?

About that.

How old is he?

This was some years ago but he would have been about 30 at the time.

He obviously thought you'd be open to a bit of male-bonding over objectifying a very young woman's body.

Possibly, or he may just have wanted to make an appreciative comment to some men he was with.

Eeeeuw, quite frankly. Creepy, creepy, creepy.

If that is your perception fair enough, although it personally doesn't bother me per se if someone in a group or men or women spot what they consider to be an appealing member of the opposite (or same) sex and comment to the others. Although sometimes it can be, naturally. And it quickly ramps up if things are shouted out and so on.

INickedAName
"Yes Basil, I actually wrote a post asking Japab, how the conversation would have gone if the girl was 16 but deleted because I couldn't get the wording right.

I just wondered if pointing she was 14, meant that had she been 16 then such comments were ok, or that they would have agreed with him and joined in."

Blimey, all this analysis on a single anecdote that was brought up just to illustrate that dress can change thoughts (whether this ought to be the case is a separate matter). Good thing for him that this is all anonymous as some people seem to have a stereotype for this sort of thing, and he has been placed into it.

But anyway, to answer your query, I very much doubt he would have done had he believed her 16. Most men I know would still consider that "underage" even if technically it isn't. Well that is my experience anyway. No doubt others could tell other anecdotes of men doing just that.

No one cares if it bothers you JAPAB. Whether it bothers women, is the issue.

I really have no idea, why you hang out on the feminist boards

By insisting that men getting boners about women, is actually an example of women's "power" you're achieving 3 things:...

Really good post, Basil. It needs to be said a whole lot more often.

Also, I wish someone had clarified this when I discovered my 'powers' as a teen. I might not have done anything at all differently, but I'd have been a damn sight clearer about what was really going on.

marmaladeatkinz
We can all have an opinion, can't we. I am of the opinion that there is no intrinsic issue per se "if someone in a group or men or women spot what they consider to be an appealing member of the opposite (or same) sex and comment to the others".

No-one has to care, and you are free to believe that "if someone in a group or men or women spot what they consider to be an appealing member of the opposite (or same) sex and comment to the others" is something for which only a female opinion matters.

Well I suppose JAPAB finds it interesting without necessarily agreeing with everything, same as me.

This has been an interesting thread. It's been lively, there have been lots of different opinions without anyone spectacularly falling out with anyone else.

I am of the opinion that there is no intrinsic issue per se "if someone in a group or men or women spot what they consider to be an appealing member of the opposite (or same) sex and comment to the others".

Commenting that someone looks attractive is one thing. It goes something like "She's pretty". Commenting in an objectifying way is part of rape culture. Picking out body parts, characterising her outfit as 'inviting sexual attention' (probably more colloquially), and comments like "I'd do her" are objectifying.

There are two reasons this matters: it perpetuates the idea of women as goods for men's consumption; more worryingly, the vast majority of rapists don't see themselves as rapists and actually believe all other men force or coerce women into sex. Sexually objectifying remarks help them to believe it: when their mates talk like women are bodies and body parts for men's use, it reinforces their feeling of male normality.

I don't like it when women objectify men like this - but it has to be said that, women lacking the physical and cultural power enjoyed by men as a class, it is harmless by comparison.

Of course, anyone using sexually objectifying language about a child is a serious worry. It's formally a marker for potential sex abuse.

Maybe lass. He always has a predictable POV on feminist issues though. Not one that indicates that he is interested.

He hasn't any awareness of or empathy with women's issues and is always very oppositional. In a way, that I feel would be akin to me hanging out on the Stormfront forums

I think there's plenty wrong with looking at a random person and commenting on their body parts to your friends. It's incredibly rude for one thing, but it's also extremely immature and just a bit creepy really. That girl probably noticed your friend clocking her JABAB. I remember that as a teen, men gawping and commenting to their mates.

"all this analysis on a single anecdote that was brought up just to illustrate that dress can change thoughts"

That's because our perception as women, is different to your perception as a man, about what the interesting thing about that anecdote is.

You think it illustrates that dress can change thoughts.

I think it illustrates men's casual bonding over their objectification of girls and women. You argue that it's a neutral incident, posters on this board have pointed out to you why it's creepy and not gender neutral. I cannot ever imagine a couple of women sniggering over the pecs of a 14 year old boy, however much older and well-developed he looked.

Your anecdote shows that you hang around with creepy men and you've nowhere indicated that you see anything wrong with his creepiness.

Your anecdote tells us something about you that you may be unaware of because your testicles of objectivity are so big that they're blocking your vision.

HTH.

Following AskBasil's talk of who has the power I came across this which asks the same thing everydayfeminism.com/2015/04/empowered-vs-objectified/

Lass's post which prompted some complaints was pretty squarely aimed at me, and much of it probably justified, I dunno. Though I would say in my defence that the only reason gender neutral implies what you still call traditional boys clothing is because I cannot put my ds in a dress and not expect him to get pilloried for it. He likes flowers, why can't I put him in nice flowery print shirts for summer? As someone else said we are so restricted by what's available in the shops.

Some people tell me that retailers only stock what we want to buy. Not what I want to buy they don't. Nor do I buy the excuse (ha ha) that it's really what most people want to buy. The most people they are talking about will want to buy whatever they're told they should want to buy, that's what fashion is.

AskBasil
You think it illustrates that dress can change thoughts.

I think it illustrates men's casual bonding over their objectification of girls and women. You argue that it's a neutral incident, posters on this board have pointed out to you why it's creepy and not gender neutral.

I can only remember you saying it was creepy, but if that is your perception then as I say fair enough. And if you genuinely do think it creepy for a man to make appreciative comments like this to others, then unfortunately you are surrounded by a sea of creeps.

I cannot ever imagine a couple of women sniggering over the pecs of a 14 year old boy, however much older and well-developed he looked.

Sniggering? I certainly have heard of such appreciations though. Several years ago a man on another MB reporting some women he knew discussing how they'd like to be the ones to "initiate" Tom Daley who they had been watching in some swimming event, when he is old enough, and they knew he was 14. Another female poster responded to this with a 'phew, not just me then', and she knew his age also. She did acknowledge that she probably shouldn't be "admiring" him in this way, but she did comment that if you could blur out his young face he had a great body that looked like it belonged to an older person. In the event I mentioned he believed her older and did not react positively when he discovered that he had been admiring a 14-year-old.

Your anecdote shows that you hang around with creepy men and you've nowhere indicated that you see anything wrong with his creepiness.

I can understand why someone might not like the thought of a man drawing the attention of other men to a lady in with visible, nice legs, but I do not see it as that big a deal I'm afraid.

Your anecdote tells us something about you that you may be unaware of because your testicles of objectivity are so big that they're blocking your vision.

I could just as easily flip that the other way around. Your perception of such things is coloured because you filter it through a lens that has been built up from a spectrum of incidents ranging from 'nice legs' to 'great tits, I'd like to fuck her' to wolf-whistles to harassment and so on. A lens that unsurprising does not exist to filter a similar level incident involving women talking about a man, through.

Or there again, maybe I am wrong and it is creepy and a big deal, but then as I say, we live in a sea of creeps in that case, unfortunately. Someone who has a circle of male friends and acquaintances would find it hard not to hang around with creepy men.

“if you genuinely do think it creepy for a man to make appreciative comments like this to others, then unfortunately you are surrounded by a sea of creeps.”

I’m actually not surrounded by a sea of creeps JAPAB, as I don't know many men and the ones I do know, aren't creepy, or if they are, they aren't creepy to me. Men are only creepy to people they know are tolerant of their creepiness, people who "do not see it as that big a deal”, who reinforce their impression that being creepy is actually being "appreciative", which is why some people have this idea that we're surrounded by a sea of creeps. You choose your own company and I choose not to surround myself with creeps.

“Someone who has a circle of male friends and acquaintances would find it hard not to hang around with creepy men.”

My, aren’t you the man-hater. I’m not going to argue with your view that most men are creepy, if that’s what you think, what are you doing to change men? Or are you content that men being creepy is just what men are?

“A lens that unsurprising does not exist to filter a similar level incident involving women talking about a man, through”

That’s because there simply isn’t a similar level of incidence involving women talking about males and bonding over their objectification that there is with men doing likewise to women. Your anecdote about Tom Daly stands out precisely because it is exceptional - I've literally never heard women talk like that about boys (men sometimes yes, but not boys. And when they do talk about men like that, it's always a bit tongue in cheek, without the rapey overtones that men's conversations like that have).

In our family experience we have had an older member of DW's family pulled up on comments about her teen nieces and well, he is creepy and we know he uses prossies. Though FIL has also used language like calling them (nieces) babes.

You do get guys nudging each other say with in the past sharing page 3 or something on their phone with the rider 'bet she does it up the arse' type comments and men can feel they have to go along with it and or learn this is normal male to male behavior,don't want to be excluded/ridiculed as homosexual, they same behaviors extending to when you go out. By normalising this you then get the extremes able to exist the 'if theirs grass on the wicket' type people, though wether this is just to get garner 'your a wrongun' type comments? (this is not my language, but have been my observations)

A female family member had an ex in their 30's who cheated and 'didn't realise a girl was 16' when he had sex with them, which to most of us is weird behavior as because of his age to be dating anyone sub 20 is weird and teenage even creepier (this was the reason for the break). The guy is now playing happy families with someone his age.

The fact that I would say a lot of men who know men are like that its more common.

As mentioned earlier wolf whistling has only gone down due to better enforcement, those careful constructors schemes, with people kicked off site etc.

It may be common, it may not be.

I don't know anyone who behaves like this, or if I do, they don't behave like this around me because they know they'd get short shrift.

It would be less common if every time a man behaved like this, other men slapped him down.

But many men are just cowards - they don't agree with this behaviour, they think it's appalling and they would be ashamed to have any of the women they know witness them behaving like that - but they don't have the balls to come out and say to another man it's wrong.

One man saying it's wrong, is worth a thousand women saying so. Wrong, unfortunate, unjust, but true.

But men don't have the guts to do it. Or they don't want to, because they like having the option of dehumanising women occasionally.

So women are left to fight it alone and be ridiculed and lampooned for doing so.

Lass's post which prompted some complaints was pretty squarely aimed at me

It wasn't in particular, nor really anyone on this thread. I mentioned the thread bemoaning the existence of women's lab coats. I didn't actually comment on it but the posts on it were of the type which irritate me- a sort of sneering at women who like feminine things.

If you read my whole rant it covers anyone who thinks their opinion on what another person wears is worth tuppence.

at JAPAB remembering a specific conversation where a group of women were lechering at an underage boy 7 years ago

Whilst even one such conversation is not acceptable I can think of literally hundreds of conversation I have heard like that about girls. I can think of dozens of occasions when I was the recipient! Same for all women

Ah yes, marmalade, but his singular personal experience totes wipes out the lived experiences of hundreds of thousands of women every single day. It's that logical dead end of well, women do it toooooooo or well, once I heard this, so you're all wrong