sexualisation of children vs slut shaming

[bikeandrun]

My DD is y6, having a great time with a fancy dress parades and final party. Being having lots of discussions with other mums and my mum about what the girls have been wearing. Finding my responses to this difficult
" cant believe mums let their daughters out of the house dressed like that" response to crop tops, mini skirts, lots of slap high heels etc

"girls don't understand the effect they have on men when they dress like that" this was aimed at a girl in dds year who has obviously gone through puberty and has a woman's body
Are just a few quotes I have heard
As a young single woman i used to enjoy dressing in an extreme and sexual way and felt empowered and confident.BUT

These girls are not sexual beings yet but is it slut shaming or just protective parenting to not want 11 year olds to dress like this.

I persuaded dd to wear converse rather than high heels mainly cos I know she wanted to jump around like a manic but I also really didn't like how she looked in those heels.
Help me find a feminist way through these feeling as I support my daughter as she grows into a woman

I'd rather promote gender neutral clothing that emphasises practicality for weather and playtime.

And that's where we part company. Because "gender neutral" really means traditional boys' clothes doesn't it? Heaven forfend a girl might want to wear a dress.

I have always had a strong preference for feminine clothes. I hated trousers/jeans , still do. Wearing a skirt or a dress did not hinder me growing up on a farm, climbing trees (until that got boring ) or cycling 3 miles to school or even occasionally riding our pony. It's so long ago I can't remember what I wore on my feet but will undoubtedly have been girly (I'd never have worn "ugly shoes")

There now follows a rant which is not related to chldren's clothes but attitudes to clothes generally

You know what I would like? If everyone would just mind their own business about other people's clothes choices.

Can I start with feminists who sneer at feminine clothes? Or think it's some sort badge of honour to be unfeminine which shows how enlightened they are compared to air heads like me who "perform femininity ".

For example there are comments in another thread lamenting the fact "women's lab coats" exist. They exist because (a) the men's version has longer sleeves than the woman's and (b) men generally have less bottom and hips. And (c) because presumably women want and buy them. How dare they.

For example many years'ago DP and I were both chest size 34. I borrowed a white shirt and a skinny tie from him to wear with a severe black tailored skirt suit. The shirt didn't fit. It was OK in the chest, too wide at the collar and shoulders and too narrow over my hips. The tie was too long. Because women's bodies and men's bodies are not the same shape. It is not patriarchal oppression to recognise this.

And on shoes, I am so fed up with feminists telling me my favoured style of shoe is impractical. OK I get the message you don't like kitten heels and ballet flats. Personally I have no difficulty walking in either style. In fact the most uncomfortable shoes I've ever had by a country mile were a pair of Doc Martens.

Oh and a well meant compliment about what someone is wearing is not an insult or sexual harassment.

Moving on- there is nothing wrong in choosing clothes which you think make you more attractive.

Whether you are choosing them for your own inner confidence or because you think they will make you more attractive to a potential partner or a mix of each. Both just fine.

What is not fine is (a) men who assume it means the wearer is up for it with anyone and that it is an open invitation or that it's fine to make lewd or persistent or degrading or demeaning remarks to the wearer or (b) women who assume it means the wearer is up for it with anyone and that it is an open invitation.

Oh and anyone in groups (a) or (b) I can't begin to tell you how little I will value your opinion if you describe any woman as "dressed like a slut" (hint even less than I wil value the opinion of anyone telling me I'm performing feminity)

And finally for any one who thinks women need to dress modestly else what will men think of them? Bollocks.

I admit I'm judgemental about appearance. I admit I look at people at think judgemental thoughts about what they are wearing. (I don't mind sartorial disasters, it's more the irredeemably boring choices that get to me) But I keep these thoughts to myself. I don't tell anyone, I certainly don't tell the person concerned and it has no bearing on how I interact with that person.

None of you on here can police my thoughts . According to poster Mama men have lustful thoughts if they see a woman in skimpy clothes. I don't know if they do but we can't police their thoughts either. But what we can all do is simply accept that what another person is wearing is none of our business.

Anyway I feel much better after that.

Where I live it's very hot at the moment (high 30s) and the teenagers are generally wearing shorts and relatively skimpy tops because they are cooler. Many boys are just wearing shorts. Some men are also just wearing shorts, but I don't believe I've seen anyone over the age of about 25 wearing short shorts or very short skirts. The girls are not copying adults, and they are not looking to be sexually alluring, just wearing clothes for hot weather that are currently in fashion.

Now personally I would like it if there was a range of lengths of shorts for both boys and girls, but unfortunately board shorts for guys and short shorts for girls are in. dd and I spent a long time looking for longer shorts and found two or three that had an extra couple of inches. She got grief at school for not being fashionable. There is no way she would have worn the boys boarding shorts, they are very obviously not designed for girls and why should she have to take the grief? She has a couple of summer dresses, but they are also very short as she is almost six foot. Should I tell her she has to wear leggings all summer?

Plus she has lovely long athletic legs, I don't really get why she should have to hide them away. They are just legs!

JAPAB the example you raised was of a 14yo child who was wearing a short skirt, and your friend made some salacious comments about her legs. His response was that she shouldn't be dressed like that, rather than to think maybe he shouldn't go around making salacious comments about females if he isn't bloody sure they are women rather than children, or even better, not make salacious comments about passers-by so much, in general.

You seem to be justifying her response by saying that some women dress up in order to look more attractive. I'm really not sure what that has to do with your example.

It's also interesting that you keep bringing this back to assumptions a male observer might make. eg "Of course this does not mean that the woman (or man) choosing what to wear or how to alter about their appearance when going clubbing say, necessarily has the motive of attracting others to them, or "inviting" attention. Surely some do though, and then it is part of the "process"." The majority of women will only want attention from certain men, not from all and sundry. And the type of attention they want will be of the less leery, lecherous, won't leave you alone variety.

Women on this thread are telling you this, that they do not usually select clothes to "send messages" to all, and and sundry men they pass. To deliberately "invite attention" from whoever might be passing. And 14 year old girls even less so. 14 year old girls are horrified when they get "attention" from random men. They do not like it. And they are most certainly not, when they put a short skirt on, thinking "wow the skanky old men on the high street are going to love this! Some of them might even make dirty comments to me! Great! And even, most will not even be thinking about boys their own age when they put a skirt on. They will be thinking things like "it's hot, I'll wear my new skirt, it goes well with that eyeshadow" and maybe "I wonder if my friends will think it looks good".

It is a certain type of mindset that insists that women and girls must be trying to send all these messages (of availability) to all and sundry men, when women and girls themselves say No I'm Not, Now Stop That and Fuck Off.

WTF Lass?

"You know what I would like? If everyone would just mind their own business about other people's clothes choices.

Can I start with feminists who sneer at feminine clothes? Or think it's some sort badge of honour to be unfeminine which shows how enlightened they are compared to air heads like me who "perform femininity "."

The feminists on this thread have spent the best part of 2 days defending the right of women and girls to wear whatever the fuck they like, including short skirts, heels, and short shorts.

So where exactly have you got that from? It's like being thrown into a parallel universe, launching an incredibly strong attack against feminists for saying the exact opposite to what they have been saying.

That's just really weird.

lass I hope it wasn't me who upset you? I have expressed my lack of interest in clothefashion, and lack of feminine clothes. I did not mean to imply that femininity and fashion were 'airheaded' in anyway. Whilst, I find it tedious, I 100% recognise that other people enjoy clothes. My mum and my dd are case in point

I rant similar to you. The term TOMBOY makes me RAGE. It conjure a girl in jeans doing 'boy thing'. Because 'girly girls' couldn't possibly play football or climb trees etc....No, you have to be some kind of boy to do that

& JAPAB you are annoying really. You are completely ignoring all the stories from all of the women who have told stories about being assaulted etc when they were young, to keep banging on a point about well some women wear clothes to show their bodies off (well sure, and some their faces, and some their hair, and etc) and this somehow means that it was really awful of your friend to be tricked by an underage girl into liking her legs.

Your whole argument is incoherent. What I am hearing is that you think that women and girls who dress in a certain way may be trying to indicate that they are "up for it" and due to this they shouldn't be surprised when men approach them. Is that what you are trying to say? Because you're really going round the houses about it.

JAPAB you are annoying really

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51
All I have been doing is disagreeing with the notion that dress makes no difference to anything, ever. Sometimes it does.

If you were to go back through the discussion between us you will find that in the main I have been responding to your "never"s with "sometimes". Disagreeing with a "never makes a difference" with "sometimes it does" is not to say " it always does" and therefore be dismissive of individual accounts of people being leered at whatever they were wearing.

Sometimes, for some men, it does make a difference. It is not the case IMO that it either NEVER does, or that it ALWAYS does. Hope that clarifies.

"& JAPAB you are annoying really. You are completely ignoring all the stories from all of the women who have told stories about being assaulted etc when they were young, to keep banging on a point about well some women wear clothes to show their bodies off (well sure, and some their faces, and some their hair, and etc) and this somehow means that it was really awful of your friend to be tricked by an underage girl into liking her legs."

I mentioned it to give a concurring real life example of the way someone was dressed affecting the thoughts of an observer. The above is your spin. I wasn't even thinking of it in my last few responses to you. I was responding to another one of your "never"s, this time about clothing never having anything to do with the "process" of inviting attention. Sometimes I reckon it does. Sometimes not always.

What the women on this thread are saying, is that certain men will harass, pursue, irritate, assault & etc and so forth, girls and women, irrespective of what they are wearing.

You seem to be very invested in arguing against this, as far as I can tell your reason for feeling so strongly, is because your friend admired the legs of a nearby female, and then when he found out she was 14, he felt disgusted with himself, and in an inspirational example of identifying the root of his problem, blamed the girl's skirt, and by extension the girl.

And since that comment you have been going on and on about how sometimes women wear skimpy clothes because they want to look attractive to men. Well yes. But rarely to any passing man. And actually more often they just want to look "nice". And what does this have to do with a 14yo anyway? Your friend thought she was unreasonable for wearing a short skirt while being in possession of a pair of nice legs and making him want to have sex with her. Do you think she was unreasonable?

Affecting his thoughts is not what women on here mind.

It is when their actions are affected, they get the hump.

And in the case of your friend, he didn't just have a thought, did he. He expressed that thought by making salacious remarks to his friends. As many men do. When other females, or the object of the remarks, can hear. And you know what? We don't like it. So tell your mate to keep his trap shut in future.

JAPAB It is irrelevant what you think women's intentions are, because you are a man. You have no knowledge of the internal motivations of women. You might be right, you might be wrong. But your musings on the subject are not relevant

No Galaxy it was not aimed at anyone on this thread which as you say has been defending the right of women to wear what they want. That is not always the case however. Or rather "the right to wear what you want" comes qualifications.

And to paraphrase of course "NAFALT"

Why bring it up then? This thread is about as far away from that stereotype of "what feminists say" as you can get, and the existing conversation is still ongoing, I'm not sure what prompted that lengthy post. Wanting to argue against feminists taking a position that feminists themselves have been arguing against for hours and hours and hours. It seems weird. To me.

In any case surely there is a huge difference between seeing someone attractive who is looking attractive (like the 14 year old with nice legs) and thinking 'that person is attractive' which I imagine we all do from time to time if we are paying attention, and assuming that they look that way in order to get us (random people) to respond in some way. Especially given that that reaction is mostly unwanted and often quite frightening.

If I see a lad with a nice body I can appreciate that without wanting to make advances towards him, or feeling that he is in some way leading me on (which it sounds like was the man in JAPAB's scenario's reaction). It's a really pernicious view that girls who simply happen to have bodies that are attractive to the men are somehow responsible (have 'power') in some way for the way those men choose to react.

Everyone is free to think whatever they like, it's how they act that matters.

Agree with all that Nooka.

Did you read my whole post? You know the bit where I said pretty much what you say here?

It is a certain type of mindset that insists that women and girls must be trying to send all these messages (of availability) to all and sundry men

And we have seen from posts here it's not just some men who have that mindset.

My point is that imposing interpretations of what clothing means is just as irritating when a certain type of feminist does it as when a sexist man. It's actually quite refreshing on this thread for that line not to be taken. I am not arguing against anything you or marmalade have said on this thread (although I'm not keen on " gender neutral clothes as being the way forward)

I wish I'd said something now in response to the "loony feminist " post. This thread to me seems entirely moderate and mainstream.

I'm sure this has been posted before, but I still find it an interesting take to turn the tables and have a man being the one harassed and abused on the street.

www.buzzfeed.com/marietelling/this-powerful-video-shows-men-what-it-feels-like-to-be-subje#.enjzrEylz5

haute de la garenne seems an investigation is underway and some people have been imprisoned.

Everyone is free to think whatever they like, it's how they act that matters

Exactly. I can't stop any man or woman for that matter looking at another woman and thinking "slut". But if they say it out loud I'm free to think , well frankly, they're not anyone worth bothering with.

whoops wrong thread sorry.

Galaxy Sorry is that an update on Haute de La Garenne?

Well it's from 2014.

There is a thread at the moment talking about a Australian TV news show that has produced a prog about people with power influence money etc and child abuse in the UK and the cover-ups and so forth.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51
"What the women on this thread are saying, is that certain men will harass, pursue, irritate, assault & etc and so forth, girls and women, irrespective of what they are wearing.

You seem to be very invested in arguing against this"

No, I agree with that in relation to certain men. I disagree with the nevers. But as often happens in such discussions, disagreement over one thing gets magnified until it looks like people are in opposition on everything, when in fact they might agree on plenty.

marmaladeatkinz
"JAPAB It is irrelevant what you think women's intentions are, because you are a man. You have no knowledge of the internal motivations of women. You might be right, you might be wrong. But your musings on the subject are not relevant"

That would be a legitimate point whether I was a man or a woman, if I was speculating on any specific individual woman. All any of us can do then is draw inferences or make assumptions, which may or may not be correct for this one person. Not sure I have been doing that however, just by stating that something is possible in response to a blanket statement about women.

All any of us can do then is draw inferences or make assumptions, which may or may not be correct for this one person

And then keep those assumptions to ourselves. Should the assumption be that the woman is indeed up for it she can unequivocally and enthusiastically let you know the assumption was correct. But checking the assumption involves things like conversation, engaging with her as a person and backing off when asked to. It's really not that difficult.