sexualisation of children vs slut shaming

[bikeandrun]

My DD is y6, having a great time with a fancy dress parades and final party. Being having lots of discussions with other mums and my mum about what the girls have been wearing. Finding my responses to this difficult
" cant believe mums let their daughters out of the house dressed like that" response to crop tops, mini skirts, lots of slap high heels etc

"girls don't understand the effect they have on men when they dress like that" this was aimed at a girl in dds year who has obviously gone through puberty and has a woman's body
Are just a few quotes I have heard
As a young single woman i used to enjoy dressing in an extreme and sexual way and felt empowered and confident.BUT

These girls are not sexual beings yet but is it slut shaming or just protective parenting to not want 11 year olds to dress like this.

I persuaded dd to wear converse rather than high heels mainly cos I know she wanted to jump around like a manic but I also really didn't like how she looked in those heels.
Help me find a feminist way through these feeling as I support my daughter as she grows into a woman

Marmalade
There is absolutely no correlation between unwanted sexual attention and length of skirt
Rubbish. Just because the wearer doesn't want attention and her wearing a short skirt does not indicate availability doesn't mean that men won't misread short skirts and cleavage as availability because they will.
Rapists may be equal opportunist but pests- whistlers and bottom pinchers, particularly not in the UK are very aware of what women and girls wear and target those wearing (in their opinion) available clothing.

seriously show me the stats that link skirt length with sexual sssualt
we've been battling this stupid attitude for decades

I'm not talking about sexual assault. As I made very clear- rapists rape but sleazy men target girls and women showing flesh. I'm talking about sexual attention.

And that's what you were talking about a few posts up thread:
There is absolutely no correlation between unwanted sexual attention and length of skirt
That's evidently wrong.

It's not evidently wrong. The experiences of absolutely loads of women will show you that.

Many women say that they got most hassle in their lives when they were in school uniform.

The idea that women are signalling to men with their clothes that they want unwanted attention (!) and so if only they didn't dress like that they wouldn't have any problems is the thing that is evidently wrong.

Are women and girls in countries where covering more is the norm, less likely to experience street harassment and so forth? No. Street harassment is worst in cultures that say it is normal for men to do this, and have strong victim blaming attitudes. Open your eyes and look around the world. See if dress correlates to freedom from unwanted make attention.

You think that women and girls in India who protest about eve teasing could solve their own problems by wearing longer skirts then.

Great idea wonder why no ones thought of that before.

You know how builders don't whistle at girls so much any more? Do you think that changed because girls started dressing more demurely or because society recognised it as a problem and more to the point their employers told them not to do it any more.

As I made very clear- rapists rape but sleazy men target girls and women showing flesh.

A sleazy man will target girls and women.

It really doesn't matter what they wear. If it did then many girls wouldn't get all the hassle while wearing their school uniform.

I'm speaking as I go here so sorry if it makes no sense.

I've seen "mixed messages" mentioned a few times. In my mind it's similar to arguments about "grey areas" when talking about consent. I genuinely don't understand it, how can the clothing a young girl (or a woman) wears be a mixed message? I mean, mixed message, implies there was an invite there in the first place. Which then makes me think, do some men, start with the opinion girls actually want ogling by them? And is this the same attitudes that translates into "short skirt = yes" ? And why do large parts of society seem to agree.

I think what I was trying to say is, why aren't we teaching men and boys that short skirts, crop tops etc are not signals to be read, they are just clothes and don't indicate consent, wanting to be cat called, or wanting to be groped. Men couldn't say they misread the short skirt, if they learnt at a young age that a short skirt isn't something to be read.

You've given me lots to think about whirlpool
Because funnily enough I was thinking of India and Turkey when I posted.
Case 1 Turkey me as a 20 year old annoyed by clicking sounds from every bloody man I walked past. Longer skirts, eyes down and it stopped. This didn't work in Italy or Spain btw where I found even slowing down, regardless of what I wore got attention.
Case 2 fast forward 25 years to India with 11/12 year old daughters. They really hated crowds regardless of what they were wearing unless they were literally flanked by parents. This was a few years back and there wasn't the awareness of quite how dangerous it is to be a young woman in India.
My daughters have also commented that they are much more uncomfortable in different areas of London.
I said waaaay up thread that I didn't stop my daughters wearing short skirts to school as I felt broad daylight with friends was a good place to gauge how men do react to different dress.
I think it's power. Men whistle less from scaffolding because they are now likely to get a humiliating riposte in front if their peers. And they do leer at school girls because a 12 year old is less likely to have the confidence to confront them. School uniform might just be a symbol of powerlessness.
Can I just reiterate that every comment I've made on this thread is concerning verbal harassment not assault and perceived messages, not intent by the wearer.

Blimey this is all getting vitriolic. I think you are all getting entrenched into extreme positions.

I'm sticking with my fence. Clothes themselves do not at root cause sexual harassment, men engaging in it cause sexual harassment and what girls happen to be wearing when men let loose is essentially irrelevant - as Whirlpool correctly says men feel entitled to judge women and girls on appearance all the time and to vocalise their judgements, occasionally to act on them, whatever they are wearing.

Sexual harassment is not about sexual desire, it is about the power men feel they have over women and their need to express it.

All abusers of any kind deny responsibility for their actions, but that does not stop them actually having any. Who else can stop a bloke verbally throwing his shit around like a monkey but the bloke himself?

Nevertheless we are all part of a society, and the gender divide goes deep. Clothes are an expression of our society. Revealing clothes are an expression, not of individual women's sexuality, but of a culture which thinks women's only value is appearance and sexual availability for men. Wearing those clothes does send out the signal that one is willing to be seen that way. So for many men who are not all that bad, just raised in the same culture, this is a signal that one is available for and will appreciate sexual attention.

The worse men will pursue regardless, in fact even worse ones will pursue specifically. Men are not a homogenous group any more than women are.

And so I will not be encouraging my dd to wear skimpy clothing because I do not want her playing this game and signalling her willingness to be treated as a sexual object. But I will also not be telling her that in this way she will stop being viewed as a sexual object. And I will not be telling her that her being viewed as a sexual object is in any way her fault. My ds will be encouraged to always view women and girls as people with value in their own right, not as dirty tissues for him to blow his dick into (tips on how to achieve that are always appreciated).

It is male behaviour that needs to change the most, but all of society needs an overhaul.

This is quite a comfy fence, anyone want to join me?

I have never been a skirt wearer, let alone a short skirt. I live in jeans/trousers/leggings. All my life I've been wolf- whistled, propositioned, groped, I've been rape once and been masturbated on by strangers twice

Im not an exception to the norm. That is the norm.

My daughter has amazing legs, very long and to bed, great skin. When she wears a short skirt is doesn't look cheap, trampy or slurry. She looks young, healthy, strong, athletic and beautiful.

She is not a sexual object. She is 10

Oh well. I liked it. I'll go try something else.

(try to think a bit more I mean).

breakdown what length of skirt will she be allowed? To the floor? Mid calf? Knee? Above knee? Mid thigh? What about her top half? Full sleeves? Short sleeves? Vests? Spaghetti straps? No straps? At what specific point does a girl signal that she Is a sex object?it would be useful to know, huh?

Frankly I'd rather not have her in skirts at all, not until boys start wearing them too. There's a reason why they're viewed as female-only attire - why have that separation anyway?

But if she insists I'd say nothing higher than above the knee. For as long as I have any influence in such matters. I'd ask her why exactly she feels it's sexually empowering to wear it, and if she doesn't think that men will also pick up on that.

(if she's too young to be thinking like that, they simply won't be in her wardrobe)

I was wolf-whistled at age 13 onwards wearing school uniform, clumpy shoes and a long coat. So, newsflash, people will behave inappropriately towards young girls and women whatever they wear.

I come down on the side of being more liberal in what DDs wear. I find it very weird and uncomfortable when people say young girls look "slutty". It says far more about the individual, and when it is a woman saying it it demonstrates a lot of self-loathing.

I don't imagine that she does think it is 'sexually empowering'= I imagine she will just be liking the pattern and thinks it goes nice with her jacket and shoes

Some men will 'behave inappropriately' whatever you wear or even if they can't see you, yes (I said upthread I used to get sexual harassment over the phone).

Nevertheless clothes copying adult ones designed to be sexually appealing are really not appropriate if you don't want to look sexually appealing. The aesthetics of clothes are not in a vacuum. Aesthetics are not universal, they are culturally determined. Why do you think a particular skirt is nice? Why are skirts nice? Why is it necessary that they look 'nice' with shoes, men aren't that bothered, and what does that mean anyway. Why do those shoes look 'nice'? (don't get me started on the impracticality and stupidity of women's and girl's gendered shoe designs )

She won't have skirts in her wardrobe until she understands sexual empowerment??

No no don't push her off the fence! She might land on the wrong side! And worse, someone might see her knickers!

My dd, at age 10, is 5'7" with size 7 feet. She is a size 8/10. She doesn't wear clothes which 'copy adult clothes'. She wears adult clothes. If she wore kids clothes, they would be even shorter!

What makes a skirt look nice? Why does it have to match shoes? I have no flipping clue tbh! it's not my bag, I find clothes and fashion fairly tedious. But some people really enjoy it

I think you're saying that you want the cultural signals of clothing to change. That's the better long-term approach (though you could include getting rid of the idea of skirts as female-only attire and gettng your son to wear them too imo) - removing the idea that clothing gives signals leaves the shitty behaviour in the open for all to see. But I'm looking at those cultural values that exist right now and saying 'no'. While being aware that some men still believe they have sexual rights over women regardless of whatever signals they're putting out.