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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

sexualisation of children vs slut shaming

582 replies

bikeandrun · 17/07/2015 09:34

My DD is y6, having a great time with a fancy dress parades and final party. Being having lots of discussions with other mums and my mum about what the girls have been wearing. Finding my responses to this difficult
" cant believe mums let their daughters out of the house dressed like that" response to crop tops, mini skirts, lots of slap high heels etc

"girls don't understand the effect they have on men when they dress like that" this was aimed at a girl in dds year who has obviously gone through puberty and has a woman's body
Are just a few quotes I have heard
As a young single woman i used to enjoy dressing in an extreme and sexual way and felt empowered and confident.BUT

These girls are not sexual beings yet but is it slut shaming or just protective parenting to not want 11 year olds to dress like this.

I persuaded dd to wear converse rather than high heels mainly cos I know she wanted to jump around like a manic but I also really didn't like how she looked in those heels.
Help me find a feminist way through these feeling as I support my daughter as she grows into a woman

OP posts:

cailindana · 19/07/2015 17:14

I'm not sure what point you're making there JABAB?

cailindana · 19/07/2015 17:14

Fair enough Mama.

laurierf · 19/07/2015 17:18

it's every women's choice to wear what they want to wear. Personally I don't want men lusting after my body and I cannot prevent them from doing so, therefore I cover up

The two times I've had a man get his cock out and start wanking at me on public transport, I was wearing, firstly, a hideous and very un-sexy school uniform and thick black tights and the second time I was wearing normal jeans and a t-shirt. I have never had it happen to me whilst wearing "sexy" clothing. Therefore, the answer is I should clearly walk around in "sexy" clothing because it seems to be the whole innocent, covered up thing that drives these lustful men wild and means they can't control themselves

LassUnparalleled · 19/07/2015 17:18

Personally I don't want men lusting after my body and I cannot prevent them from doing so, therefore I cover up.

As Callin said you don't have a very high opinion of men do you?

Although this remark manages to inflate your opinion of yourself as being so physically attractive men can't help themselves from being overcome by lust whilst at the same time reducing you to no more than your tits and arse.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 19/07/2015 17:24

So are you saying that girls who are developing, should not be allowed to wear bikinis? Swimsuits? They should only be allowed to wear these clothes if there are no men around?

I don't follow.

So you want females to wear clothes that don't reveal their body shape at all, until they are deemed ready for, what, sex? Marriage?

You realise this sound like something the taleban would say, right?

I also assert that in the (popular) defence of "I didn't know how old she was honest guv" the response should not be "yeah know what you mean difficult isn't it mate" but "you need to reassess your ideas of what girls of different ages look like". Because the defence of "I didn't know how old she was honest guv" has been used for DECADES if not forever, throughout all the different styles and standards of dress. The fact is that girls aged about 12-16 or thereabouts do not look like little children because they aren't, and the sooner that people accept that the better. It is not a choice of "Innocent child" or "Sexually developed knowing woman" FGS there is a LONG bit in the middle of those 2 states.

MamaMotherMummy · 19/07/2015 17:25

Lass I dress for what I want to draw attention to. My face.

I have a very high opinion of men but am realistic about how sexual they are/can be.

It's not about being overcome by lust it's about thinking. Men think sexually about women, whatever they wear, but it seems to be correlated with clothes in general i.e. the less a woman wears the more sexual attention she attracts. While not always true, I find it a good measure. It's one thing I can control, so I do.

I may not be able to control other sexual responses of men, but I do what I can to minimize my sex appeal while still looking well presented.

Again, women's bodies have sexual power over men and we would be ignorant to deny it.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 19/07/2015 17:27

And you know what I am sick of people saying that of course a 12 yo in certain clothes is up for it and what do they expect people to think? Because this is ALSO patent bollocks - no-one really honestly thinks a 12yo is a sexually experienced temptress because she wears a cropped boyband t-shirt - so who does it BENEFIT to pretend that actually this thought process is normal?

MamaMotherMummy · 19/07/2015 17:33

Whirlpool I'm not saying anyone should do anything. I'm saying if that I have a sexually developed preteen/teen I would not want her to be the target of men's lustful thoughts, in the same way I don't wear a bikini either.

Some women are unaware of some men's thoughts, do not mind them or actively enjoy them.

In my view, I don't want to reveal my body shape at all apart from to my husband. Different people and cultures think differently, so it is up to people to choose for themselves. However, they cannot turn lustful thoughts of men off, however much they might want to.

Men have sexual thoughts which are activated by visual stimuli. Scientific fact. They may choose to fight them, they might not, that is their choice I guess. I've made my choice of what visual stimuli I am providing in response to this.

I will teach my sons to control their thoughts as much as I will teach my daughters to be aware of the effect a woman's body has on a man.

cailindana · 19/07/2015 17:35

You'll teach your sons to control their thoughts?? How on earth are you going to do that?

MamaMotherMummy · 19/07/2015 17:35

And for the record I do not think that a young girl is 'up for it' because she wears skimpy clothes. Many many girls I've known have dressed in a way that was attracting sexual attention completely obliviously.

cailindana · 19/07/2015 17:36

Do you think there's something wrong with a girl/woman attracting sexual attention Mama?

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 19/07/2015 17:36

What if a girl has a very pretty face or extraordinarily beautiful hair?

Do you and your family not go swimming in mixed environments / go on the beach on holiday?

Why do people need to control their thoughts? Thoughts are no problem at all as long as they don't translate into, or colour people 's actions.

All of your ideas around protecting yourself are restrictive and don't work anyway.

MamaMotherMummy · 19/07/2015 17:38

Don't you teach your children about the values of self-control?

I will teach my children not to create destructive thought habits like low self esteem, excessive lust etc. As the Amish say 'you can't help if a bird lands on your head but you can prevent it building a nest'.

That's no guarantee that they will conform or use it but I will hand down the tools I've learned for positive thinking, CBT etc as much as I can.

JAPAB · 19/07/2015 17:38

"I'm not sure what point you're making there JABAB?"

I was just agreeing with some of what MamaMotherMummy is saying by giving a RL example of someone having thoughts that were linked to dress, of someone 'developed' but underage. He revealed them in a way he might not otherwise have done because he did not realise her age.

While acknowledging that it is also possible that he would not have had them had he known as there can be a powerful no-no about such things.

cailindana · 19/07/2015 17:39

Well we all know what a woman with a pretty face or lovely hair must do Whirlpool don't we? Cover them up. God forbid men would have to suffer them being lovely, we can't have that.

cailindana · 19/07/2015 17:40

Ok JAPAB but I'm still not sure what your point is. Stating someone has nice legs isn't really a crime is it? Perhaps she did have nice legs. Does that change because she's 14?

MamaMotherMummy · 19/07/2015 17:42

cailindana not if they want it. Personally I don't. I have done in the past but am now not interested.

I'm sorry but I do think there's a problem with a grown man thinking he wants to have sex with a 13 year old girl, especially if that girl is my daughter, whether he takes action or not.

You can't prevent everything but you can certainly make a difference to what is portrayed and the atmosphere created. A girl with a pretty face who dresses in a covered up way will provoke different thoughts than a girl with a pretty face who dresses with barely anything on. And there will be differences in who approaches her, why they approach her and how they approach her. Whether or not that should be the case is immaterial. It is reality.

cailindana · 19/07/2015 17:44

So you do think that what a girl wears influences whether she'll be attacked or not?

cailindana · 19/07/2015 17:45

I'm still curious how you're going to teach your sons how to control their thoughts Mama.

JAPAB · 19/07/2015 17:46

"All of your ideas around protecting yourself are restrictive and don't work anyway."

Speaking as a man IME I am far more likely to have aappreciative thoughts if I pass a woman in a bikini than I am if I was passing a nun. If someone does have a problem with men having such thoughts about her then dress can work in this regard.

She of course shouldn't have to dress 'restrictively' on men's account, but if her goal is to reduce the chance of lustful thoughts I am not sure why anyone would dispute that modifying dress can work here.

cailindana · 19/07/2015 17:47

I honestly think choosing what you wear in order to restrict the thoughts of other people is weird, but if someone wants to do that, good luck to them.

cailindana · 19/07/2015 17:48

I'm still curious about your previous post JABAB about the 14 year old girl with nice legs - I can't understand what point you're making.

MamaMotherMummy · 19/07/2015 17:50

cailindana no I don't think it influences attackers because attackers are not looking for permission or mutual social interaction in the way that other men are. In fact, I don't know if this is true, but I wouldn't be surprised if men attacked more women who dressed less sexually. If it is a control thing, maybe they go for what they perceive as 'forbidden' or someone who they wouldn't ever expect to be able to have sex with. Just a theory.

I'm not talking about rapists and attackers. I'm talking about regular guys.

LassUnparalleled · 19/07/2015 17:50

Mama How do you police these men from not having lustful thoughts and imagining what you are like under your all covering clothes?

I don't know how much or how litte make-up ypu wear (obviously) but many people find heavily kholed and long-lashed eyes extremely attractive.

Or are you suggesting men's response is purely Pavlovian i.e the exposure of a sufficient amount of flesh triggers drooling but they lack the imagination to think this way if flesh exposure is kept to a certain level?

cailindana · 19/07/2015 17:52

To add, there are plenty of people, women and men, who are turned on by clothes that aren't skimpy. Plenty of people find nuns very sexy.

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