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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

sexualisation of children vs slut shaming

582 replies

bikeandrun · 17/07/2015 09:34

My DD is y6, having a great time with a fancy dress parades and final party. Being having lots of discussions with other mums and my mum about what the girls have been wearing. Finding my responses to this difficult
" cant believe mums let their daughters out of the house dressed like that" response to crop tops, mini skirts, lots of slap high heels etc

"girls don't understand the effect they have on men when they dress like that" this was aimed at a girl in dds year who has obviously gone through puberty and has a woman's body
Are just a few quotes I have heard
As a young single woman i used to enjoy dressing in an extreme and sexual way and felt empowered and confident.BUT

These girls are not sexual beings yet but is it slut shaming or just protective parenting to not want 11 year olds to dress like this.

I persuaded dd to wear converse rather than high heels mainly cos I know she wanted to jump around like a manic but I also really didn't like how she looked in those heels.
Help me find a feminist way through these feeling as I support my daughter as she grows into a woman

OP posts:
MamaMotherMummy · 19/07/2015 16:32

I don't want some 40 year old guy picturing fucking my 12 year old daughter, that's why, regardless of whether he does anything abut it or not.

Lass I never mentioned anything about harassment, assault or rape. I have been raped myself, and I have no doubt in my mind that it has NOTHING to do with clothing. I am not talking about any of that. I am talking about thoughts.

cailindana · 19/07/2015 16:33

So what a girl wears causes a man to have thoughts about her, so she needs to change what she wears in order to prevent those thoughts? But it doesn't cause men to attack her, just think about her?

LassUnparalleled · 19/07/2015 16:38

I don't want some 40 year old guy picturing fucking my 12 year old daughter, that's why, regardless of whether he does anything abut it or not.

And you think if she's wearing jeans and a baggy sweat shirt the type of man who thinks that won't?

But if it's a hot day and she takes her sweatshirt off to show she is wearing a crop top otherwise decent men will have those thoughts?

I mentioned rape etc. because your line of thinking is precisely the school of thought that says only scantily dressed women are at risk of being raped. Poor men - they can't control their lustful thoughts.

MamaMotherMummy · 19/07/2015 16:38

Yes, what a woman wears causes a man to have thoughts about her. This is why Page 3 and sexy magazines are successful and why men continue to buy them. This is why many women dress up in the way they do, to make men want them or think about them in a sexual way. Not all women, but many.

I cannot stop men thinking in a sexual way. Therefore I make the choice to dress in a way where I will divert men's attention towards my face and character, away from my sexuality. I choose to keep my sexuality for my husband and I.

Women's bodies have power over men. No one can deny that.

cailindana · 19/07/2015 16:39

Women's bodies have power over men. What power?

MamaMotherMummy · 19/07/2015 16:46

Many men have to go through great struggles to control their lustful thoughts Lass.

Men fantasize over visual stimuli much more than women, hence porn mags etc whereas women tend to use their imagination (not all). A man can be more tempted to visualize sexual activity if they are prevented with sexual stimuli. A normal man among a group of elderly women and a normal man among a group of strippers dressed in their stripper gear is going to be having a vastly different thought experience.

Therefore saying a man presented with a developed 12 year old in a bikini and a 12 year old in baggy clothes will have the same experience is incorrect in my view. For some it will have little to no effect, others will have to force themselves to look away, some will notice 'she's developed' probably in the same way a woman might, and others would secretly lust, whereas others would openly lust. Denying that isn't going to make it go away

Duckdeamon · 19/07/2015 16:47
Confused
cailindana · 19/07/2015 16:48

So what if men 'go through great struggles to control their lustful thoughts' Mama?
Why should women cover up because of that?

MamaMotherMummy · 19/07/2015 16:49

Women's bodies have the power of attraction over men. Which is why women's bodies are used to sell products, music etc etc etc. Which is why many men like to spend their money on magazines full of skimpily dressed women. Which is why men's heads turn when they see sexy scantily clad women walking down the street.

cailindana · 19/07/2015 16:50

So what? And also, aren't women attracted to men at all?

MamaMotherMummy · 19/07/2015 16:50

cailindana it's every women's choice to wear what they want to wear. Personally I don't want men lusting after my body and I cannot prevent them from doing so, therefore I cover up.

Badgerqueen · 19/07/2015 16:51

Sorry super long, but there is a lot going on here: sexual children, sexualising children (these are quite different things), sexual clothing and sexy dressing in women, judging clothing, pleasing/provoking the male gaze, sexual empowerment, sluttiness, slut shaming a child, judging other people's dress, judging an 11 year old's dress, judging other people's standards and parenting. Some of this is about children, some it really isn't. And I think we tend to start the conversations about children being teens/looking adult/sexual/whatever and not like children far far too early. I am currently working on the premise that they are children till about 21!

One thing to remember is that kids are always are trying stuff out that they don't fully understand; neither the celebration of their bodies (which is a very adult approach to adult perceived problems, kids just are till we or society tells them they are something, be it nice, or fat, or sporty or whatever), nor do they really "get" the sexual implications that certain clothes and combinations of clothes communicate to us as grown-ups. We put those interpretations on them and reinforce behaviours by our responses (you look pretty is said to girls from the moment they emerge - so not unexpected that they might try to engender that response as they become more autonomous). So how we react, don't react or shape the interactions is key I guess (just as was when they were two and bellowing "NO!").

Just like with language and behaviour kids of all ages do need to try things out, but as parents we are there to guide them through and set limits where we think things might be inappropriate (in public, at school, in the garden, with non-family around etc etc etc). They try things out to get reactions, gauge response, try on a new way of being, be like their friends - all in order to see where they fit, what happens next, what reactions they might get. Too right that an 11 year old "doesn't understand the effect she has on men" she shouldn't either. She shouldn't be judged for that, surely? She should be guided and protected, but that is almost impossible to do when you are not her parent and not something that wider society seems particularly good at. In any case none of it is her fault or her problem even - the issue is the adults around her. The man who asks for her number (as happened in a corner store locally to one 11 yr old girl we know), her parents who think it's okay (and they may have their own well worked out reasons and logic!), the other parents who judge and categorise her, the retailers who sell padded bras to children etc, the advertisers who use 12 year olds as models for adult products....If they do have a precocious knowledge and presentation of their sexuality at 11, while that might be where they are personally in terms of their development, there is also a chance that they have been exposed to a great deal more sexy (and I would still contend that they are not capable of fully understanding their sexuality at that age, let alone adult sexual response) than you might hope for your own child.

Inappropriateness is very subjective of course, and as they approach later childhood and early teens there is a whole new territory to navigate. I think though at Year 6 (and for that matter 7 & 8) they are still very much kids and it is surely fine to say you are too young for this or that, we believe this and behave this way at home, but other people do this because they think this is ok. I am constantly surprised by how many people say "oh so and so looks much older" about children - at 11/12 I am really struggling to see it. But it gets repeated and repeated and they then slip into acting as if the child IS older. Developed 11/12 year olds have a few of the characteristics of an adult - but it is REALLY (IMHO) rare to see an 11 year old who genuinely could pass for 16 (as a nominal age for sexual maturity).

So OP - finding a way through is all there is! I am navigating too with an 11 year old. We talk about it - she is uncomfortable with what she doesn't have the language for, but is in fact the too adult appearance of some of her peers. And yet she is increasingly interested in looking "nice" - wearing a bit of make-up, even low heels for special occasions. I think this is ok. I loved to look sexy at 17 onwards (and of course this starts earlier for lots of people), but I am hoping we can get nearer that age so that she does it in full knowledge that is an expression of her sexuality and she is control.

Phew. Sorry. Thinking a lot about this too!

MamaMotherMummy · 19/07/2015 16:53

Women are attracted to men but you rarely see them buy magazines of half naked men to wank over.

Women are more aroused by mood, men are more aroused by visuals.
Scientific proof: www.medscape.com/viewarticle/808430

INickedAName · 19/07/2015 16:56

I think experimenting with different styles of clothing and make up etc are part of growing up, and children and young girls should be able to experiment with their own style without having adult labels and adult intentions applied to them. Children and young girls shouldn't be blamed for the actions of men.

I had the most sexual comments thrown at me when wearing school uniform, I actually thought it was normal to have men grab your bum or say sexual things as it happened often to me and my friends.

I don't have many nights out now, but when I do, I don't wear revealing clothes and still get approached. This is just my experience but telling a man No Thank You and hoping they leave you alone is met with anger a lot. I've been called a slag, a miserable bitch, told they'd be doing me a favour as I'm ugly. Sometimes they walk off saying sorry to bother you, but sometimes they get nasty too.

Clothing had made little difference to me, I get comments in joggers and as much as comments in short skirts. I absolutey hated it my teens, few weeks ago a teenage girl (looked about 12/14) came in the cafe we were in, wearing shorts and tshirts, the men gawping at her made me feel sick, and the wives throwing her dirty looks and calling her names under her breath were just as bad. If my husband was drooling over a teenager it would be him I'd be mad at ( and divorcing) not the teenager who has done nothing wrong.

Badgerqueen · 19/07/2015 16:59

oh god - I just responded to the OP. Didn't notice there was a huge row. Oh well. Sad to see where this has gone. :(

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 19/07/2015 17:00

So men lusting after children is natural and so we need to cover the children's bodies up in an attempt to control the thoughts and behaviour of grown men.

I see.

How do you feel about boys in shorts, then? Are gay men a big threat, or is it just heterosexual men who you think often have trouble controlling themselves around pubescent children?

And of course this is all balls.

Men who want to fuck young girls / children / underage girls will do so irrespective of what they are wearing.

if they act on their desires then they are committing a crime and should be pursued to the full extent of the law.

I went to a show thing today, there were some 12yo girls with shorts and crop tops and lipstick doing "street dance". Not really my sort of thing, but they were very good at dancing. I find it mind-boggling to think that anyone watching that would think "little sluts, they would love a good fucking" rather than "oh look some 12 year old girls in clothes which might be skimpier than I would prefer but hey they're not me".

cailindana · 19/07/2015 17:00

Wow you don't have a very high opinion of men Mama. They're not animals who go around slavering after every woman they see. There's no need to cover up around them. But if you feel safer hiding your body away, you go ahead. It won't protect you from anything but if it's comfort to you then why do otherwise.

INickedAName · 19/07/2015 17:02

Just think back a little, I remember dressing up in my mums clothes when I was a kid, I'd fill her bra up with socks and wear her dresses, this kind of evolved into older sister experimenting with my hair and make up when I was around 12 ish. I didn't wear clothing and make up etc because I wanted men to look at me and fancy me, I did it because I wanted to be grown up and look like Kylie Minougue!

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 19/07/2015 17:05

I'm really not gone on the whole "men are more visual than women" stuff anyway.

Massive massive amounts of conditioning and what is available and so forth, due to different power dynamics and expectations about behaviour.

If the playing field is even, I think that women are just as capable of seeing men as sex objects as vice versa.

I mean boybands aren't exactly populated with ugly men, there are pics all over the net of extremely attractive men in undress that get looked at and shared by women and so forth. Many women will express a preference for a tight arse or a nicely turned bicep or a whacking great muscular pair of shoulders. Or indeed for different types of men - slender androgynous ones, older powerful looking ones, all sorts.

This pretence that women only care about, what, personality? Or something? It's utter bullshit really. Male film stars are not pig ugly. Women like seeing fit men with their kit off. This is undeniable, surely.

cailindana · 19/07/2015 17:08

Of course it is Whirlpool. But women in our society aren't supposed to lust after anything. They're supposed to wait demurely, covered from neck to ankle, until a man decides to marry them and then submit to sex as a wifely duty.

MamaMotherMummy · 19/07/2015 17:09

I was at the beach the other day and there was a married man in a party of about 8. He went to sit alone for a while and a young girl from the party (perhaps 12-14) kept coming up to him and talking to him. She was extremely well-developed and looked like a woman in all but face. He was doing everything in his power not to look at her. I don't think he was wrong or dirty, but that he was trying t control a natural urge. It's not paedophilic because she's not prepubescent. The different ages of 'adulthood' throughout the ages could tell you that, as much as she is a child now, she wouldn't have been in other times. Therefore I think, if we expect children with women's bodies to be considered as children not suitable for sexual desire, we should cover them up.

She will have the same body at 16. Is it ok to look at her then? 18? Nothing about her body will have changed, so why would she be suddenly attractive when she hit that age? It doesn't make sense.

Whirlpool I certainly hope people wouldn't be thinking that, but I could bet a good number of fathers were feeling uncomfortable, that is if the girls were developed.

Cailindana I never said slavering. But I did say thinking. And many men do picture fucking women when they're walking down the street.

cailindana · 19/07/2015 17:11

SO WHAT if men think about fucking women Mama???

Do you really think that man wasn't able to see that that child wasn't 'suitable for sexual desire'?

So what if he looked at her? Are his eyes going to burn out? Is she going to turn to dust?

MamaMotherMummy · 19/07/2015 17:11

TBH seeing men with their clothes off does absolutely nothing for me. And I'm happily married.

Other women might enjoy it, but not so much so that there's a huge market for purposely created magazines or TV channels.

JAPAB · 19/07/2015 17:12

Therefore saying a man presented with a developed 12 year old in a bikini and a 12 year old in baggy clothes will have the same experience is incorrect in my view. For some it will have little to no effect, others will have to force themselves to look away, some will notice 'she's developed' probably in the same way a woman might, and others would secretly lust, whereas others would openly lust. Denying that isn't going to make it go away

I know someone who made an appreciative comment about the legs of a young woman in a short skirt, who was then informed by another of the men present who knew her that she was only 14. First man thought she was older due to the way she looked and dressed. He then complained about young girls dressing older, and said he felt sick about having thought about a 14-year-old in that way.

If he had known she was 14 he might well have had the same appreciative thought but kept quiet about it, or perhaps in that case he would never have had such a thought in the first place due to the social conditioning around such things.

MamaMotherMummy · 19/07/2015 17:13

No, she won't turn to dust, but I wouldn't like my daughter to be in that situation. And I don't want men to think about fucking me.

I suppose I cannot prevent either, but putting adequate clothes on and not dressing for men's attention does enough for me Smile