sexualisation of children vs slut shaming

[bikeandrun]

My DD is y6, having a great time with a fancy dress parades and final party. Being having lots of discussions with other mums and my mum about what the girls have been wearing. Finding my responses to this difficult
" cant believe mums let their daughters out of the house dressed like that" response to crop tops, mini skirts, lots of slap high heels etc

"girls don't understand the effect they have on men when they dress like that" this was aimed at a girl in dds year who has obviously gone through puberty and has a woman's body
Are just a few quotes I have heard
As a young single woman i used to enjoy dressing in an extreme and sexual way and felt empowered and confident.BUT

These girls are not sexual beings yet but is it slut shaming or just protective parenting to not want 11 year olds to dress like this.

I persuaded dd to wear converse rather than high heels mainly cos I know she wanted to jump around like a manic but I also really didn't like how she looked in those heels.
Help me find a feminist way through these feeling as I support my daughter as she grows into a woman

I always suspected there were people who judged others and their children on their clothes but I've never actually heard someone come out and say they do it.

If my kids ever say to me 'what if they judge me on my clothes?' I'll say 'well that's a lucky escape for you then, why would you want to know someone like that?'

And before anyone starts I know there are situations like work where you have to dress a certain way. In that case I would say to my children that yes you do need to follow the dress code as best you can but if you find that you're not really 'fitting in' then you should consider whether that job is really right for you.

In social situations it is entirely different. What a person wears is totally up to them and if others look and judge, well good luck to them. I have better things to do with my life than to make up stories about other people based on their clothes. I'd rather get to know people who dress in all sorts of ways.

Ok I'm done. I have never got into any kind of argy bargy on MN, and I'm not going to start now, in spite of words being put into my mouth. You may indeed be the few amazing saints who make no judgement at all about people unless you know them. In which case, well done you. I believe that in the majority of cases, we can make a pretty good guess at some things about most people by observing them (and their clothes), and I think that almost everybody does this, all the time, every single day. I'm surprised that you don't believe that.

Fair enough. I entirely believe that you judge people on their clothes as I can accept other people are different than I am. I honestly don't judge on clothes as I have very little interest in clothes and I haven't seen any personal evidence that clothes are reliable indicator of what a person is like. Not everyone thinks the same way you do holmes.

I don't think certain clothes are trampy and distasteful for example. Not all clothes are to my taste but I don't use the term 'trampy' for anyone.

I don't think this is saint like, it's normal

I accept it might happen subconsciously occasionally, as a first impression...but I wouldn't base opinions on it. If I recognise such a thought, I'd I'd put it in its place of being a prejudice..and tackle it
not use confirmation bias, as you appear to have

I don't use the word trampy either. Or slutty, or any of those appallingly sexist ways of dismissing women. And believe it or not, I'm not that interested in clothes either.

It occurs to me to point out that when I talk about judging people by their clothes or appearance, I don't necessarily mean judge negatively. I mean make assumptions about. In the sense that I'd walk past people and maybe think 'She's on the way to a party. He's a bit scruffy - maybe he's been doing DIY or maybe he doesn't care much about his appearance ' etc. If I were a stranger looking at me, I'd think 'Early 40's, mum, not very interested in fashion. A bit mumsy and doesn't iron' .

It is true that perhaps some of my more strong judgements are about kids wearing clothes that look too adult. I guess that is because I (like a lot of parents) am wary of my children being pushed by peer pressure into growing up too fast. And I see 'adult' clothes as an outward sign of this, which is why I don't like it.

As a teacher I am generally regarded as sympathetic and nice by my pupils, I assure you. I would not dream of letting a child's appearance affect the way I teach them or treat them. In any case, once you meet people, you immediately have far more information on which to base your understanding of them.

When I see them in their own clothes, I do judge. In that I might think "If I were that child's parent, I would not have let him/her come to school in that ridiculously short skirt/inappropriately sloganed t-shirt/ high heels/ see-through dress etc. And I wonder why the parents did allow it, and what else they allow.

Holmes, you described short tight clothes as "trampy and distasteful." So you do indeed use the word trampy.

What sort of adult clothes do the boys in your classes wear? And what does that say about how they're 'growing up too fast'?

Sorry holmes that wasn't you that was someone else.

No it's true that the only real example I could think of for boys was the inappropriate slogans thing. But that's because there is much less difference between boys' and men's clothing than there is between girls' and (some) women's. Now I realise that is in itself part of the inequality that remains between the sexes. However, I'd be much happier to see that difference in clothing narrowed by women embracing a more comfortable, practical and less fashion-mag-influenced look than narrow it by seeing young girls in hot pants and false nails tbh.

What I object to holmes, is that when girls and women wear tight/short clothing it's seen as reflecting on their character in some way. So they're not just wearing tight and short clothes, they're being 'inappropriate' - how? What's inappropriate about wearing clothes? Nothing. What people are doing is reading into what they're wearing, assuming that they're wearing those clothes so men will notice them and find them sexy. Again, what's wrong with that? Nothing much really. But the further implication is that women who want to appear sexy are up for sex, and will have sex with whoever gives them attention (hence the idea of a 'slut') and women aren't allowed to want sex or to have sex as and when they want. For women to display their sexiness is inappropriate. They must be sexy, of course, but only in a way that doesn't indicate they actually want sex.

It's fucked up.

I also wonder, why aren't we worrying about all the young boys out there with shorts and no tops on? Aren't they being inappropriate?

Many posters also betrayed an attitude on this thread that if a woman dresses in a 'sexy' way then she can only expect men to assault her. Which is, frankly, a disgusting attitude to have.

I don't necessarily mean judge negatively. I mean make assumptions about.

I am making assumptions about these people. And judging them negatively. Maybe it's just ill-judged fancy dress à la Prince Harry (although he was I accept judged to be an idiot rather than a Nazi) but I'm going to assume they are telling me something.

www.google.co.uk/search?q=people+wearing+swastika+t+-shirts&safe=active&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIqpbGn7bnxgIVwbMUCh0McAVq&biw=360&bih=511#imgrc=3T8XbqMhLIRE9M%3A

www.google.co.uk/search?q=people+wearing+swastika+t+-shirts&safe=active&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIqpbGn7bnxgIVwbMUCh0McAVq&biw=360&bih=511#imgrc=LvFJTe5_xVRNlM%3A

To take less extreme examples I'd assume a nun or a priest or a woman in a burqa is making a statement about his or her religious beliefs. It doesn't tell me anything about whether or not they are interesting or dull as ditchwater or whether or not they are people I might enjoy spending time with or whether or not they like cats as much as I do. I can probably safely assume there are topics on which I would never agree with them.

Whilst these are obviously very specific examples I don't agree with the statements that what you wear isn't a way of telling the world at least part of what sort of person you are.

It's of course entirely wrong that clothes should be interpreted as meaning up for unwanted sex. There's no reason at all for being judgemental about anyone dressing to be attractive to potential sexual partners. It's the twisting that to mean anyone who sees that and interprets it to mean any bloke at all.

Extremely against the grain, but I disagree with women wearing sexually revealing clothes. I am against young girls with women's bodies doing so, also, and I think it is naïve to believe that some older men do not watch them with sexual intentions or have a difficult time struggling not to. Covering up does not stop men thinking in a sexual way, after all, its hardwired into all of us to want sex to keep the human race continuing, but I would choose not to let my daughters dress in a way that men find provocative.

I am also against men and boys walking around with short shorts and their tops off. Women tend to be less visual than men but I still don't find it appropriate for a man to walk around with nothing on in front of people.

I just think that most of your body should be reserved for your partner and yourself. It's private. But this said, I am a private person who is very family oriented and likes to spend a lot of time at home. I don't know if that influences my opinions in any way.

Sorry last sentence should read . "It's the twisting that to mean anyone who sees that and interprets it to mean any bloke at all which is wrong"

If I see someone dressed as a nun, I assume they're a nun, as you say Lass, but they might not be. It doesn't tell me anything at all about that person though, so I can't make any judgement on who they are.

Clothes might give some information, particularly when it's a uniform of some kind, but it gives no indication of a person's character and I don't judge a person's character or lifestyle based on their clothes.

I am against young girls with women's bodies doing so, also, and I think it is naïve to believe that some older men do not watch them with sexual intentions or have a difficult time struggling not to. Covering up does not stop men thinking in a sexual way, after all, its hardwired into all of us to want sex to keep the human race
continuing, but I would choose not to let my daughters dress in a way that men find provocative.

There's so many things wrong in that paragraph I'm not sure where to begin.

I think it's perfectly fine to disagree with revealing clothes Mama. Everyone has a preference when it comes to what they wear.

What I object to is the idea that wearing revealing clothes is 'slutty' or causes men to assault women.

Fine Callin have it your own way.

Some one dressed as a nun might just be in fancy dress or think "hey I look great in this" and the blokes in the nazi t- shirts don't really understand the signals they are sending out. I don't agree. Feel free to focus on that as opposed to any other comments I've made.

I don't think clothes cause men to assault women. Control issues cause men to assault women.

I don't think it's slutty but I think it's extremely naïve for people to say it has no effect on men's influencing the thoughts men have because it does. Otherwise all porn and page 3 could be carried out in burqas.

sorry meant to say 'it has no effect on influencing the thoughts men have'

I'm not disagreeing with you at all Lass, I was agreeing that clothes give you information about a person, but I was saying it tells you very little about their character. Obviously in extreme cases where someone is wearing a symbol of aggression like a Nazi t-shirt you'd be well advised to take the hint that they're not nice people.

Mama - say it does influence men's thoughts. What's the problem with that?

I don't think it's slutty but I think it's extremely naïve for people to say it has no effect on men's influencing the thoughts men have because it does. Otherwise all porn and page 3 could be carried out in burqas

Have you read any of the individual accounts of harassment, assault or rape on here?