Rebutting the Straw Men/Owning up when "it's a fair cop, guv.

[LurcioAgain]

BertrandRussell has started an interesting thread in Chat asking women who consciously reject the label "feminist" why they do so. One thing that strikes me is a lot of the reasons being given are in fact "straw men", and that maybe a rebutting the straw men thread would be nice.

Aim of the game (of course I can't control the direction the conversation takes, but I hope people will be on board with this) - keep the conversation couched in reasonably accessible terms, keep the posts short enough not to be overwhelming (so probably only one straw man per post!)

I've always thought that a straw man was just a someone stating a "fact" without any evidence to back it up.

So some feminists say things you don't like are aggressive and all the word feminism becomes dirty and bad.
But men (as a class) assault, rape and murder women daily and people fall over themselves to point out NotAllMen.

Right.

^typos. Typos everywhere.

LEM, I think straw man gets used more as a slang term in philosophy. Aunt Sally is a more every day term for the same thing that I have heard people say.

It just means to make out that someone has made up an argument that cannot be defended, and then you knock the argument down.

Yes, that's it in a nutshell.

Being feminist and coming up with unpleasant views which you refuse to be challenged on is a choice. Being a man isn't.

"Oh, come off it. It's hardly a feminist point if you believe it isn't only men.

Be brave enough to admit you don't know everything."

I honestly don't know what you mean here.

All people have the biological equipment to sexually assault other people.

I am sorry you were assaulted.

ifyourehoppy - women assault and murder women too.

Straw man argument, I think

Me : We need to reduce the budget for communications within the company. We can't afford it.

Person 1: But we use mobile phones to make sure staff are safe when out on a job. Are your saying you don't care if staff are assaulted?

Person 2: I can't agree to anything that puts staff in harms way. I'm really shocked you would even suggest it. Aren't our staff important to you?

Me : Communications isn't just mobile phones but we do need to reduce the budget.

Person 1: I can't believe you care so little about our staff being assaulted. It's all about money not people....

I think that is an example. A question or point is made and another person makes an assumption then argues about that and places that assumption on another person. In reality that wasn't what the conversation is about.

Actually, I do not think men are more genetically predisposed to commit sexual assault. I believe socialisation accounts for the difference in crime figures.

LEM, no.

This would be a straw man.

ME: I believe Christmas is important.
YOU: But Santa isn't real! He can't possibly deliver presents to all those children in one night. And reindeers can't fly.
ME: I never said Santa was real. You are making a straw man argument. I said Christmas was important.

MsRaspberry, being a man is not a choice, but raping/sexually assaulting people is a choice. And a far higher percentage of men (albeit still a minority) choose to make that choice than women. And surely we're allowed to ask "why is this?"

I am sorry to hear you were sexually assaulted.

It isn't all feminists that come up with some of the more appalling views, but it is only the non feminist identifying people that will challenge them. I don't understand why you aren't annoyed about those feminists that make you all look bad. There's seemingly no attempt to moderate or mitigate the views of the mass. That's why you are all getting it in the neck on the other thread.

It's a long time ago and it was more disgusting than disturbing, but thanks to you both for your sympathy. It is appreciated.

The issue I have is that, in my opinion, people do horrible things because they are twats. It is needlessly unfair to blame men, in any capacity, for specific acts of violence. It's like being suspicious of everyone who lives in London because there is a higher rate of crime there.

Ms, again it isn't true that feminists don't challenge each other. For example, There was a long thread about the PIV/rape quote and most posters disagreed strongly with it.

I am a feminist and I do challenge the views of feminists all the time. I have done so on this thread. And other feminists challenge my views.

I am not annoyed that other feminists make me look bad. I am worried and sad that the way mass internet interaction is happening is leading to a lot of harmful anti social behaviour from all sorts of people, including feminists.

I worry and reflect a lot on my own online behaviour and wonder what impact I am having on myself and other people.

I am very willing to say that there are many feminists I disagree with on certain issues. There are also issues I don't know much or anything about. There are also parts of feminist theory that I would disagree with. I think most of the people on here would say the same. If I agree with Yonic on many issues (just using you as an example as you're the last post while I'm writing this) we could probably find a bunch of things we outright disagree on or admit to not knowing enough about to have a real discussion.

But there are also a bunch of things that I personally hear repeatedly that are widely believed but I think are false. This is different to the things I have genuine issues with. Whether we have 1 thread or 2 is pretty equal in my opinion. It could work either way. I think the OP was just interested in the myths. I don't think it's about not being willing to engage.

What most people are doing is repeating things they have heard said under the banner of feminism. Many a mickle makes a muckle.

I'm glad to hear that things are challenged. I don't see it happening so much, but I am glad to take your word for it.

Can I say I think this and the thread in Chat and the "I'm not a feminist but..." thread also in Chat are useful and worth having.

(And can I also say I've never been sure what "straw man" or "pass overaggressive" mean)

"Passive-aggressve" obviously.

I agree Lass.

I would say that if I did the tea run at work and handed you a cup of tea, and you didn't say thanks, instead of mentioning that it bothered me I would wait until the next person said thanks and say 'oh isn't it nice to know that not everyone is ungrateful!' I would be being passive aggressive. I would also accept various other terms you might like to throw at me!

Another one adding my agreement.

Eh?

With Lass, I mean.