Rebutting the Straw Men/Owning up when "it's a fair cop, guv.

[LurcioAgain]

BertrandRussell has started an interesting thread in Chat asking women who consciously reject the label "feminist" why they do so. One thing that strikes me is a lot of the reasons being given are in fact "straw men", and that maybe a rebutting the straw men thread would be nice.

Aim of the game (of course I can't control the direction the conversation takes, but I hope people will be on board with this) - keep the conversation couched in reasonably accessible terms, keep the posts short enough not to be overwhelming (so probably only one straw man per post!)

Yes, male aggression is more likely to be excused with an affectionate "boys will be boys".

I fear I'm walking into the lion's den a bit with this one, but I am genuinely interested.

I have always thought that males were more pre-disposed (not sure about that hyphen) to be more aggressive than females due to testosterone and other biological reasons. Is this a myth then? Or an unknown?

It always struck me as a bit odd because in a lot of species the females are actually more aggressive.

I think the problem with feminism from my perspective is, as a theory, it makes sweeping generalisations. Anything that doesn't fit with the feminist worldview seems to be dismissed as false consciousness, at least in the few papers I've read ok, I realise I'm making a sweeping generalisation myself

The problem with most 'isms' I think is that once you start seeing things from one perspective you tend to try and make things fit that perspective, IYKWIM.

I'd be interested to hear from those who do identify as feminists whether they think feminism is having/has had an identity crisis, and if so, why?

We don't hold men to 100% consistency with one another, why should feminism? After all it is a mode of thinking that takes into account 50% of the world population.

It's going to be filled with smart, stupid, kind and unkind people, same as any other human demographic. Aside from perhaps viewing things from a female perspective everything else is up for grabs.

I don't agree with every feminist analysis, nor do I share the life experience of women (I am a man). However thanks to feminism we enjoy a society that's just that little bit fairer, for a few more people.

There is no reason that things can't be made better still. However things can't if the basic questions aren't asked, and problem areas identified. Now what qualifies as a right answer or genuine problem may differ from person to person, man to woman or even woman to woman. I think that's ok too.

I remember a thread came up recently about race re: feminism which was very enlightening. I've seen a lot of threads recently where FWR (and its regulars) have been lambasted, but this is a passionate place filled with people who care very deeply it is going to be somewhere where ideas clash sometimes explosively so, but that isn't a statement on feminism or even women for that matter. It is simply what it is to be human.

I've been reading and posting for a little while now, but despite the rep I have also found it a friendly space, a supportive place and a protective one.

Heavens I posted (as a man) about experiences where one woman in my life had taken advantage of me, I got sensitivity and compassion over it. Not "I am a man so must therefore be in the wrong". So I'm afraid I cannot accept the narrative that feminism (or FWR for that matter) is somehow man hating.

On that note I would like to say I miss Buffy.

I lurk a lot and rarely post on FWR but so many of the 'I'm not a feminist' reasons that I've seen come down to a mentality that think feminists are a club with rules and if you're not a 'good enough' feminist then you can't claim to be one and wear the badge.

I have on occasions posted on feminism topics and been told by a poster that I can't be a feminist because e.g. I'm not supporting x because she's a woman vs. a man and she's oppressed because she's a woman so therefore entitled to do whatever she feels she must, but I am confident enough in my beliefs to think that my version of feminism and theirs is different but mine is equally valid. I could see if would be offputting if you were just beginning to dip your toe into debating it though.

I miss Buffy too, I liked reading her posts.

Well there is no central feminist high command, but I take your point. I do wish people would feel being human and having ideas was sufficient to express themselves.

I recall a fascinating theme across several threads and posts that examined how personal experiences are so often dismissed and invalidated in the face of so called facts and statistics.

Quite aside from the fact that they are biased on what we choose to record, how we record then and how we choose to present that data.

It is depressingly easy to marginalise/dismiss real pressing issues this way. Not that in suggesting for a moment we reject things like science and statistics. However far too many people trot out this stuff without realising how it unquestioningly conforms to the dominant social paradigm.

Yes, that there is no "high command" is pretty much what I was trying to say but more elequoently!

Oops, someone used the word 'paradigm' on FWR. There'll be a klaxon going off now to highlight the fact someone on here is being too intellectual.

Oh, on that note I spelled elequoently wrong didn't I? I think that balances out the use of paradigm runs off to the dictionary for both

Ah I see this thread has become self congratulatory already.

This is my first post in FWR so handle me carefully! I will start by saying thanks for starting this thread I feel like I am just seeing thing that were right in front of my face for the first time however some of the chat on FWR can get very in depth and my basic knowledge is lacking.

I used to hold some of the same opinions being shared on the other thread but when I asked myself the question I feel is really the relevant "Do women have complete equality?" I would answer is no. Women have come along way thanks to our feminist mothers and grandmothers but there is still work to be done. When there are equal women in parliament to men, same with STEM subjects and boardrooms, when so called women's work (childcare, cleaning etc) is valued and equally done by both sexes, when pay is equal, when the conviction rate for rape increases and I'm sure many more injustices that affect women are combated will there no longer be a need for feminism. This is why I think it's important.

I maybe wanted to post this in the other thread but didn't want to come across as telling people why they should be feminists. Just thought I would share the opposing view of why I think I am a feminist.

Sorry my thoughts are rather garbled and may not pertain to the topic in hand so as you were.

Also before i go I'm a little confused how people who don't think they are feminists are saying this is because men and women have obvious large biological differences but then in the same post say they don't like the anti trans debate (which in my opinion isn't actually anti any trans person) in FWR at the moment. Isn't this a little contradictory?

shackle
All those are also my opinion, I just don't identify as or were the badge of feminism.
I also want equality for everyone, regardless of gender.

I agree twart on equality for everyone I guess it's how you achieve this. I don't feel it's my job to fight for or be vocal about men's rights however I full support them. It's like when the fund raiser for (insert horrible disease) goes round I throw my money in like everyone else but this issue hasn't effected me so I'm not the fund raiser going round if that makes sense. I think rightly or wrongly people campaign for things that affect them directly.

I can see were you are coming there shackle

I often find myself at odds with aspects of feminism that this board seems to endorse, certainly comments in the past might have been seen as Judgey at best. I have my opinions and I will vocalise them when I find people with a different view point. I have sort of stopped replying when people rather than discuss the point refuse to accept that the facts might be a bit different to what they believe.

In terms of men being moire prone to violence I wonder if it is because the state often demands it of them? Lithuania has reintroduce the military draft but only men will be drafted although women can volunteer. I wonder if that sort of sexism will disappear and both sexes will be drafted?

That wasn't very pleasant, Bigbuttons.

It wasn't meant to be anything other than they way I see it. It is self congratulatory.

There is more unpleasantness posted about FWR than there is within FWR, yet FWR posters seem to be expected to ignore that and take it over and over again about how smug they are, how exclusionary they are, how self-congratulatory they are.

I'm done with tugging my forelock.

FWR is the only place where posters are slated for having intelligence and for having the audacity to post in a style suited to the participants and subject matter.

There's been plenty of times when posters have asked for an explanation of terms used or for the discussion to be dialled down a bit and those requests are always honoured but why should the posters on here adapt their posting style each and every time simply to suit those who don't wish to engage or want to be able to attack ?

It's okay to shame posters on here and create an atmosphere where they are reluctant to post or to contribute to them leaving. Sorry but I'm not going to take part or pander to those who don't post on here with good intentions.

Nobody is slating you all for being intelligent. And that sounds a bit like the only flaw you will admit to is one with a dual use as a boast.

It's the pettiness, not the complexity. You musn't think that no one has ever argued a point that has caused more creases in the ironing out?

MrsJam, Do you consider the post from Bigbuttons to have been fair? Kind? Necessary? Advanced the thread?

Or just a little negativity to pop on without any associated discussion point?

If you cut us, do we not bleed and all that - this stuff is hurtful.

MsJam, sorry!

I'm not so fussed about the title :)

I don't think it is ludicrous to suggest that a large group of people who all agree with each other may find they become a little self-congratulatory. Perhaps it is something you should be aware of. Truth and popular opinion are not always one and the same, after all.

Believe me, we think more about tone than any other group on MN because we are always hearing about it.

Ah well. Maybe time I moved on, caught up on some reading.