Rebutting the Straw Men/Owning up when "it's a fair cop, guv.

[LurcioAgain]

BertrandRussell has started an interesting thread in Chat asking women who consciously reject the label "feminist" why they do so. One thing that strikes me is a lot of the reasons being given are in fact "straw men", and that maybe a rebutting the straw men thread would be nice.

Aim of the game (of course I can't control the direction the conversation takes, but I hope people will be on board with this) - keep the conversation couched in reasonably accessible terms, keep the posts short enough not to be overwhelming (so probably only one straw man per post!)

Where is the thread with proper discussion?
I understand the point of this thread but since no discussion was allowed here and a few things said on this thread seemed to be based on misunderstandings the other FWR thread was started.

I agree it's the best to have an actual proper discussion.

SORRY I was talking about this thread on the other thread

Another strawman is that equality has been achieved and that feminism is no longer necessary....

The thread where (almost) everyone's agreed not to attempt to rebut arguments? That'll work.

Following this with interest as I am a feminist but not a Feminist iyswim although I have just given a small girl a birthday present that is deliberately unisex but I'd remark that "this is obviously not true" is denying not refuting and doesn't teach us anything.

Soapbox, because there are other countries where any person/any family member can be a second person who takes the paid leave.

In single parent families in the UK, the most common situation is a single mother who relies upon a person other than the father to do unpaid child care.

Making paid childcare available to those other people makes a difference to if a single mother can work or not, what jobs she can apply for, how much flexibility she can have. Making those payments only available to two parent families reinforces heteronormativity and puts women (including single parents) in the position of having to privately negotiate with fathers, rather than other forms of support.

It very much fits in with the whole, 'well women should make their partners do child care/clean the loo etc.' that crops up on here.

By the way, is there/will there be a thread about the reasons people gave which aren't based on misunderstandings or fallacy?

One of the things I mentioned on Bert's thread was that I don't feel like a victim, I refuse to behave like a victim, I am not afraid of men and I do not regard all men as potential rapists.

Agree with Mrshathaway - I appreciate this thread is to rebut some of the misconceptions surrounding feminism, but there are real issues on the other thread too.

Briar, it doesn't need to be that all feminists share the same opinions.

There just need to be enough feminists who have a negative perspective on various things - like femininity for example, to make women not identify with feminism.

Whether or not I identify as a feminist depends on the position of the person or people I am talking to. It is clearer to say I support women's human rights as currently stated by the UN.

I don't agree with most feminism I see online. Most of the lib fem stuff online seems quite contrary to women's human rights.

I wonder what the other thread's OP is planning. She said that she would create a follow-up thread.

I don't agree with most feminism I see online. Most of the lib fem stuff online seems quite contrary to women's human rights.

I agree, almond.

Clash, I think that's fair. But those wouldn't be described in the same way.

So to a Christian I might say "Christians think menstruating women are unclean" - sure, that's in the bible somewhere but very few UK Christians buy into that (similar I guess to the PIV/rape statement) and most would say so as a rebuttal.

I might also say "Christians have a view of womanhood influenced by the two Marys" and that would be a point of broader discussion not quick rebuttal (like perhaps "feminists are not welcoming to male allies"

Hope that makes sense.

This thread is so patronising and turning me further off feminism.

Rainbow - that's a criticism I have a lot of sympathy with - in fact I left a feminist group at university because I felt the "victim feminism" vibe was in danger of becoming a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Here's how I guess I'd respond now. I'm not a victim, nor do I see myself as one, but to some extent I am aware that this is a matter of luck. I have never had the bad luck to be in the presence of a man who is a rapist (the majority of men, mercifully, are not) at the wrong time and in the wrong place. But this is luck, not down to something I've done. I have however had friends who have been raped. And when, for instance, I get massively angry with groups of drunken men sexually harrassing women on the street, I get angry not because I genuinely think they're going to go through with anything - I do so because of the months I spent sleeping on a friend's floor when she was raped, so she had someone there for her when she woke in the night with nightmares. If she encountered a group of men harrassing her on the street after dark, she'd probably freeze in a fit of PTSD. So when I went, for instance, on a women reclaim the night march, it's not victim feminism, it's an act of solidarity towards women who have been victims, if that distinction makes sense.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I can see why you might come to the conclusion that some forms of feminism are "victim feminism" but for me, it's more that they're "anger feminism - anger because why should some women who are vulnerable have to put up with this crap?" The important thing is that I'm not saying all women are vulnerable, nor am I saying that the women who do feel vulnerable are in any way responsible for their gulnerability.

Would it help if I asked MNHQ to edit the title to "Rebutting the straw men/owning up to "it's a fair cop, guv"?

I have a question of my own - what is victim feminism?

Because I think feminists as a group has done the opposite thing of being a passive victim by creating protests, law change, women's shelters etc.

I also don't think there is anything wrong with being a victim - as a description of a person who has been the target of a crime.
But it's a "victim attitude" you have a problem with, right?

" I do not regard all men as potential rapists."

Nor do most feminists.

I would call anger feminism social justice warrior feminism - all the check your privilege, die in a fire, educate yourself, shout abuse, call out culture, white male tears stuff. It is really, really awful and there is a lot of it online.

While that is not the fault of posters on here, those people call themselves feminists.

I worry about my teens coming into contact with SJW people and tell them not to talk about political issues because of it.

When I read the OP I didn't think that it was a direct response to the other thread. I haven't read the other thread actually so can't comment. I just thought you'd been inspired, Lurcio, by what you'd read to start a thread about common misconceptions. I'm all for also addressing issues in feminism, which I think is already done on threads quite a bit, but one thread doesn't have to do everything, does it!

I think the crux of the problem for me is that I feel that unless I identify as a feminist, I'm somehow not one of the 'enlightened ones' and therefore, despite being a woman, my views are less valid.

I would like to engage in discussion and explore my own thoughts about various issues, but there is a feeling - and not just on mn, but IRL interactions - that if I dont 'toe the party line' I am obviously ignorant and misinformed.

Thank you Lurcio.

I suppose for me - I have been raped, but it was only one man. He will not have an effect on the rest of my life.

My self esteem has been badly damaged (and had a longer lasting effect on me) far more by women than by men.

Also you ask why women who are vulnerable should put up with stuff - I don't think anybody who is vulnerable should put up with anything be they male or female.

Oh - lost half my post

There just need to be enough feminists who have a negative perspective on various things - like femininity for example, to make women not identify with feminism

Agreed. Good points from almond

Yes Lurcio I think that would be a good idea. I have posted on and off for a while on FWR. On some things (prosecution of rape, porn, prostitution, abortion I am firmly in what I suspect is the rad fem camp) On other issues I disagree.

It has stopped now but I've in the past been asked why do I read and post on here if I don't call myself a feminist?

"I don't think anybody who is vulnerable should put up with anything be they male or female."

I totally agree with this - and I'd also add that people should be held responsible for crap things they do, whether they're men or women. And I'm sorry to hear you've encountered more than your fair share of female shits in your life.

But (and I hope you'll take this as a move from individual experiences to the general case) there are some forms of violence which are overwhelmingly gendered - most sexual violence is perpetrated by men. Individuals who've been on the receiving end of sexual violence will vary in their response to it, and there are male victims of sexual violence as well as female victims. But there's no getting round the fact that the majority of perpetrators are male, and among adult victims, the majority are female (I think with child victims the percentages are pretty evenly spread). And this imbalance at a statistical level for me makes it a feminist issue. And I don't think this is victim feminism, it's just stating how the world is.

I also don't think there is anything wrong with being a victim - as a description of a person who has been the target of a crime.

I agree. I do think it's important to try to avoid assigning some kind of inherent negativity to the word "victim" as regards the person who experiences violence. Its meaning should be understood as negative regarding the perpetrator, not as to the victim. Some survivors of violence, especially domestic violence and sexual assault, acknowledge a benefit from recognizing that they are victims because it helps them focus on blaming the perpetrator rather than themselves.