Length of school skirts

[KingTut]

I and my teen daughters are new to feminism and I wondered if I could talk through something?

My daughter refuses to wear a skirt as she can't stand all the length monitoring by staff at school. Dd said she would rather sweat in trousers. Then dd made the interesting comment, it's like they are blaming the girls for the boys not being able to cope if a skirt is above a knee.

It then brought us to the attitude of the Duggar family. The school are not much different really. So why do parents, staff and students say nothing about this skirt length issue? Is there something we are missing?

Sorry for the pissed off typos

Your remarks are inappropriate, Purple sky.

Beta, DD can't go to a job interview. She's a child. It would be illegal to give her a job.

Why are they inappropriate - I have said nothing inappropriate

In response to whirlpool who says "given the way you have described body parts" in the thread I went through and these are all my references to bodies that are not direct quotes from other poster ...
Knickers
Thong
Nakedness
Masturbation
Akimbo (which refers to legs).
None of these are in the slightest inappropriate and I think she has mixed me up with someone else

pieceofpurple my apologies I had you mixed up with mrstwee, and the comments about breasts flapping were not yours.

You did however bring up the child masturbating as an example of why skirts should be longer and wrote that awful post about an 11 yo.

Beta schoolgirls who wear short skirts do so (in the main) for fashion reasons and because it is what their peers are wearing. They do not wear them to get men to admire their legs, and most (all?) are quite horrified when older men make sexual comments to them. If they are trying to attract anyone it is boys their own age and most children in school uniform are wearing what the trend is, rather than actively trying to show off "assets" in the way an older woman might. You are attributing the actions and thought processes of adult experienced women to young girls. In addition, you seem to think that females commonly go to job interviews and wave their bodies at (all male obviously) interview panels in order to win jobs. In fact, most females go to interviews with a range of interviewers (male / female / straight / gay / whatever) and try to get jobs by answering the questions they are asked about relevant skills.

I have got you mixed up purple and xposts I am sorry for that.

However some of your phrasing has made me flinch.

I can't be bothered to go back through the thread.

Whichever poster said they or some other adult at their school measures girls legs with a ruler is creepy and inappropriate.

Maybe that wasn't you.

And I find it bizarre how some people believe both that teens are somehow 'adult' but also think those same teens aren't aware how creepy dress code checking is.

And whirlpool like the men they will be dressed sensibly at a job interview.

The masturbation comment was about what is seen under a desk and was in response to a poster saying that teachers shouldn't be looking after another poster commented. It was to stress that sometimes a teacher cannot help bit notice.
The post about an 11 year kid was not awful - just a description of how some 11 year olds are dressing - with full make up, red lips, scouse brows, short right skirts and legs akimbo - it's not awful it is true ... I teach in a deprived area and this is how some kids dress ... It is not appropriate for school and I said that they have freedom of expression out of school but that school is about education. I am really strict on uniform for both boys and girls in my class. By years 10 and 11 most girls are able to apply make up properly - at 11 they don't need it, particularly at school.

Almond I said we had a ruler at school to check skirt length - all the kids know about it and see it as a joke - I would say 85% of our girls have perfectly correct length skirts - a wave of the ruler is met with a laugh and a promise to roll the waistband down (only ever done by female pastoral managers, not teachers).

No I don't mean that the girls you describe / what they are doing is awful.

I mean the way you describe it, the words you use, ihow it comes across. Your descriptions sound, odd, your use of language is unusual and makes me feel uncomfortable. The way you described the 11 yo made me feel uncomfortable. Not because of what she was doing but the way it was described.

I think it's a use of language thing. I do genuinely apologise for getting you mixed up with the other poster.

I genuinely don't get how my description sounded odd. I described a literal interpretation - red lips, scouse brow, full make up. Tight short skirt and legs akimbo ....
Nothing unusual in the description and use of language at all.
Grammatically correct (English teacher)

But apologies if it offended you - I am a champion if the rights of the girls at my school!

No, the kids at your school think you're a bunch of perverts, like the kids at every other school do.

Onision, one of the most popular you tubers with teens, on the subject of creepy teachers and dress codes:

So Almond, what do you think I should do when say a yr8 pupil had rolled their skirt up so their crotch is showing as they walk down the corridor? Or has their trousers slung beneath the bum? The teachers are in loco parentis don't forget.

And of course, we have SLT breathing down our necks about enforcing school rules as well, but you can ignore this point if you like.

The bum checker is plain wrong - sorry, there is no good reason for that, and if it's a bloke checking girls I really think something needs to be raised with whatever it is that regulates teachers - I can't imagine any appropriate explanation for that behaviour.

I have to say, if someone turns up for an interview with me inappropriately dressed I might internally raise an eyebrow, but it doesn't put me off them - I hire for skills not dress sense!

As to schools, for goodness sake, just get everyone to wear trousers then. I don't get why there is any debate. At my all girls school in the distant past trousers were worn by over 50% of us (they still had to power trip by ensuring we had grey socks). I don't entertain this whole girls don't look smart in trousers thing. They are there to learn, not to be ornamental.

Although it made me giggle when I discovered a local primary mandates skirts for girls and trousers for boys because the skirt in question is actually a tartan kilt!

Lol at my all girls school we even had regulation knickers - "grey bags" - that were checked by the pe teachers every week

Agree bum checking is a bit off. Personally I would like parents to check tightness so I don't have to sew up split trouser seats, but that's a different matter

If skirts have to be allowed, I liked the rules mentioned above - specific parts to cover. Non gender-specific, flexible to any garment type, perfect.

Mind you, I'm raising my kids to understand the reason for a rule, and follow the spirit, not the letter - I want them to be able to negotiate and make correct choices based on reasons and evidence rather than blindly obey (unless of course the order is 'DUCK!'). I blame the parents - my dad always said rules are for the guidance of wisemen and the obedience of fools.

LOL - yes, I'm old enough that gym knickers were specified.. god they were hideous.

I find it odd that in order to learn some subjects, a lesson, term or year of study is sufficient, but to learn how to wear smart business attire is a full time study for their entire time at school.

Many uniforms are uncomfortable and impractical, and sometimes downright sexist. No wonder students test their limits. As someone said above, university and college students seem to manage to learn at very high levels despite a variety of clothing, hairstyles and fashion statements.

pieceofpurplesky I don't suppose it occurred to you that your 'masturbating' students might have had thrush and were very itchy?

I find the whole 'inspecting' thing particularly ick. No workplace should be doing that, and no school should be either. We certainly muttered about a deputy head who was pretty quick to manhandle students to do up top buttons and ties. Even if there was no sexual intent, it was extremely uncomfortable as a female student to have an grown adult man start mucking about with your tie and shirt. There is a huge difference in power, and I think adults in schools have to be careful not to abuse it - for example a student wanting to use the toilet, to a teacher teaching that is an annoyance, an inconvenience, but the worry about having an accident in class, in front of their peers is humiliating.

I can see that ultimately as adults we see that a child doesn't have to attend a particular school, or one at all. But the reality for most students is that it is that on a day to day basis they don't feel free to chop and change schools, and a lot of schools have similar uniform policies so it would be hard for them to just vote with their feet.

I frequently was "reprimanded" by SLT for letting a squirming pupil out to the loos mid lesson.

Real reason it's not allowed? - vandalism of loos/drug taking/ prearranged meeting up of pupils for sex or misdemeanor etc....

Oh and nowadays you do not adjust pupils clothing. You tell them to do it.
There is a difference between work place and school. At school the young people are still learning who they are, where appropriate boundaries are, how to resist peer pressure and why that's a good thing. Etc and that is one reason why "inspecting" happens.
I have already said up thread I hate hate enforcing school uniform rules. I didn't make them. But they are school rules and until they are changed part of the role if the teacher is to enforce them. And I also don't want to see boxers or knickers on display

And the difference between uni/college and school. They are under teachers loco parentis at school. At college/uni they are adults and so free to make their own wardrobe successes and failures.....

Anyway, a lot of children aren't going to be interested in careers which require business suit type attire (why is the uniform for girls modelled after male suits anyway? Most professional women don't wear ties). How about we have a term of practising wearing appropriate attire for mechanics, or surgeons, or nursery staff? How about appropriate attire for artists, musicians and dancers? It makes about as much sense to practise these? Even if you use an academic model, most university and college students don't dress in formal uniforms, why should school children?

Even if there is a school colour, why does it need to be so strict that some one feels it necessary to inspect female students' bottoms to check their trousers aren't too tight? In what world of personalised fitting garments are these jobsworths living in?

I spotted a cool looking (i.e. they had largestars on, I'm easily swayed by cute patterns) pair of toddler soft jeans in the girls section which I bought for my son. They were meant to be the same size as the boys soft jeans but were much more tightly fitted. Goodness knows why female toddlers are expected to wear tighter trousers than male ones, but I'd suggest the fit of trousers is a problem of the styles available marketed to girls and young women, not the poor mum who picks some school trousers up from the girls section.

Bring - you've come over very well on this thread I think - I agree that it must be a pain in the bum of a line to walk - having to enforce rules whilst also keeping the right side of the rules yourself.

I agree that when the rules are there, they should be enforced - boys pull trousers up, girls pull skirts down - ideally that would be because you were enforcing the same rule, not because girls and boys needed special ones for each other.

^meant a sort of general - black trousers, white poloshirt, green jumper uniform could be fairly simple, it doesn't need to be so precise.