Length of school skirts

[KingTut]

I and my teen daughters are new to feminism and I wondered if I could talk through something?

My daughter refuses to wear a skirt as she can't stand all the length monitoring by staff at school. Dd said she would rather sweat in trousers. Then dd made the interesting comment, it's like they are blaming the girls for the boys not being able to cope if a skirt is above a knee.

It then brought us to the attitude of the Duggar family. The school are not much different really. So why do parents, staff and students say nothing about this skirt length issue? Is there something we are missing?

Nope, I don't think you're missing anything, except the reason why once again women and girls are the victim and being blamed, and being forced to change their behaviour at the behest of the perpetrator.

The reason is: you're viewed by society as second class by virtue of your gender.

Students, staff and parents generally don't say anything because that's the way we've all been raised and Feminism isn't mainstream enough for most people to pull up the organsiations that perpeutate the above myth.

It's really dodgy.

I think the root of it is (and not all poeple obv but this is blunt) society sees females after puberty as sex objects (yes even if they are under 16) and hence the concern over what they wear. As if they wear clothes that show too much skin / shape (and how much is too much obviously varies depending on what society you are in which shows up how arbitrary it is) then that is seen as related to sex, sexuality, sexual display, rather than what you might hope ie there's a child's leg so what.

The words like "inappropriate" "distracting for the boys" and when I was younger things like "dressed like tarts" and so forth. It's because females are there for sex, and clothes are deemed to be an indicator of sexual availability (irrespective of what the person wearing them thinks).

I have never heard a schoolboy in shorts described as looking like a slut, for example.

So yes it's awful and your daughter is right. Some great blog posts by teens in the states who have been turned away from school / events for wearing fairly innocuous clothing on the grounds that it will distract boys / men. Even the slightest thought shows that up as a shit reason to tell them not to do it. Why should it be their problem. And the reason it is their problem is because the media and society sexualise females and this is not something to be encouraged it's something to say, no that's wrong, what the fuck are you talking about, it's a child's leg FGS, if you think that's the same as a soft porn image, or you find yourself unable to control yourself, then you've got something wrong with you.

article about girl with her comments

and here

there are more.

in the states they seem to be more upfront with saying things like "immodest" and in one I read that I can't find now a girl was barred from her prom specifically as she would be distracting for the fathers who were there...

In the UK people are more mealy mouthed about what the problem is and use words like "inappropriate" and rarely spell out what they really mean.

Mum interesting. I will read your links thanks.

What practical argument would school have? They also have odd rules about shoes too. I can understand school uniform has to be practical, it feels like they make rules for the sheer thrill of power trip at times.

Your dd is right my own dds wore trousers mostly to school skirts now and again but you would hear people tutting and commenting on teeny tiny skirts some the girls wore we got a letter home a few times about appropriate length skirts it always struck me its a skirt wtf are they on about,

I told dd things have moved on and hopefully will again. I remember helping a friend organise a petition to allow us to wear trousers. Our legs got cold in Winter and we froze. We got nowhere at the time.

Realistically I'm not sure what you can do. It's a reasonably common uniform stipulation and unless someone at the school drops a howler like the head of another school did - he said something about how short skirts meant girls were asking to be assaulted and there was a hoo-ha - I don't know that you will get anywhere. And of course most parents / adults in society don't want to see girls "dressed like tarts" so will be wholly behind skirt length measuring and enforcement.

Until society stops seeing females as decorative sex objects this won't change I don't think.

Can your DD wear shorts? Or culottes? They might be a good option for her.

Do show her the links I put, and there are lots more if you search, to show that she isn't alone in feeling how she does

Dd's showed me Lacey Green I think it is who did a great vlog.

Prior to that I showed my dd's Emma Watson's equality comments.

Why not just ban the skirt then rather than police its length. Trousers are far more practical. It is all about being decorative sex objects as Whirlpool says. Why are skirts considered normal wear for girls at all rather than for boys?

YY technological I was wondering that the other day.

I was sitting on the train and I was wondering why it is trousers for men and skirts for women. I was thinking about "traditional" christian families and how dressing "modestly" always involves skirts for women. I had no idea why - my thinking was that surely skirts are more accessible than trousers, if it's sex people are worried about?

I couldn't work it out at all. Any ideas?

I couldn't work it out at all. Any ideas?

You can't chain women up any more, so you put them in an item of clothing that makes it harder to run/escape but allows her to still do the 'chores' around the house.

She is also 'accessible' whenever you want her to be.

One thing I never understand about the skirt length argument, the same schools insisting the girls wear less for PE.

And as for VI forms - why can students in FE colleges be trusted to wear what they want but VI Forms linked to schools can't?

The "modest" ones tend to be fairly practical though - below the knee and pretty flappy so not restrictive of movement.

Is it something to do with having material rubbing around your crotch?

It's weird.

Is it for ease of changing sanitary protection? And weeing? When it first came about. That might make sense.

Knickers are around your crotch too.

Well yes but I'm struggling to think how it came about.

I don't get it.

Or is it decorative in that even the longer "modest" skirts accentuate waist and hips?

Is it because trousers, being traditionally masculine, might imply a woman is 'acting like a man'?

And we definitely can't have that, obviously.

No idea how skirts came into being originally though. I would imagine ease of 'access' is definitely part of it though.

I have been googling and "horse riding" seems to come up a lot. As something warrior men need to to and so men and trousers became associated.

I suppose trying to understand the reason this came into being in whenever it was (hundreds of years ago) in this area of the world is going to be pretty tricky!

I'm gearing up for this argument at my dd's school. She prefers to wear a skirt but is very very slim - generally a size 4. She's also 5'6" and still growing. Buying a size 4 which isn't petite is nigh on impossible, so it really is very short. She gets told off for it on a regular basis and told to wear trousers. The problem is that the selection of trousers in a size 4 with a 33" leg is similarly small so her trousers are pretty tight too and so that's not good enough either! I told her that next time she was disciplined for it I'd be going to school. Odd how it hasn't happened since isn't it?

It really irritates me though. She's fifteen. 'Ah but girls nowadays look so much older! You can't blame people giving them attention when they look so mature and when they dress in such a way...' Really? A child? In a polo and sweatshirt? Just because they have short skirts (with thick black tights I might add - not an inch of flesh on display from neck to toe)? Makes me sick. Its a disgusting message to send.

I tell her that I don't care how she dresses outside school too. She loves to show her midriff off - and why the hell shouldn't she? As long as her clothes are clean she's totally her own stylist. As she should be. I don't think my ex agrees with me but frankly he's a woman hating knob so I pop his complaints in the bin usual filing place

"Ah but girls nowadays look so much older!"

Huh this.

"They" have been saying this forever haven't they? They said it in the early 80s, when I was growing up, that's 30 years ago. And I know they said it before that. Girls wearing "grown-up" stuff has caused moral panic (is that the word?) for yonks.

Also is used as an excuse by those who like to behave inappropriately.

Of course the answer is. If you think 14 yo look 22, then you need to adjust your ideas about what 14 yo look like, don't you. Because that is what a 14 yo looks like. Victim blaming bullshit.

Precisely whirlpool. Its that whole jail bait thing isn't it? Um no. The sexualisation of a child in (predominantly) masculine brains is where you're going wrong, folks. Not the fault of the child, be she wearing a short skirt or whatever else she wants.

I have since discussed this with my 17 year old. Who moved to college rather than 6th form to get away from the controlling school environment. She pointed out they did the same in summer about bras under the girls scool blouse. She said why we're girls removed from receiving an education and publically being conditioned by Teachers because of the temperature and because boys can't control themselves? She has a point.

What was wrong with the bras? They weren't white and were showing through?

School style shirts are a nightmare for girls. They were created for men, boys, they are really uncomfortable and tight under the armpits (presumably because they aren't cut properly to take account of breasts). I hated them.

If a boy wears a vest under his shirt and you can see the outline of the neck and stuff, do they get a telling off? Is it implied that they are being sexually provocative? Hmmmm?