Length of school skirts

[KingTut]

I and my teen daughters are new to feminism and I wondered if I could talk through something?

My daughter refuses to wear a skirt as she can't stand all the length monitoring by staff at school. Dd said she would rather sweat in trousers. Then dd made the interesting comment, it's like they are blaming the girls for the boys not being able to cope if a skirt is above a knee.

It then brought us to the attitude of the Duggar family. The school are not much different really. So why do parents, staff and students say nothing about this skirt length issue? Is there something we are missing?

Oh FGS!

Why do we have to have this discussion again?

I am a man and go to work in an office in the UK dressed professionally and modestly wearing trousers, shirt, jumper or jacket. Social norms mean I do not go to work in an office wearing shorts I would wear on the beach.

Women are perfectly entitled to wear whatever they like outside work but while at work you should wear an acceptably smart and modest choice of clothing.

School children need to go work at school dressed formally for work in the same way. Children need to learn that to be taken seriously you have to dress modestly and professionally.

There is in my observation a high correlation between sloppy uniform enforcement and poor quality education in a school. Even at my children's private school I can easily pick out the serious students and those not taking it seriously by the degree to which they adhere to uniform rules. Girls in particular covered in makeup, midriff skimming blouses and short skirts stand out a mile as not having their priorities oriented in the direction of learning.

I haven't had this discussion before and I will not be alone.

I didn't describe children who were wearing sloppy uniform, spreading their legs or rebelling by breaking uniform rules. Other posters are making the thread about those issues.

School children need to go work at school dressed formally for work in the same way. Children need to learn that to be taken seriously you have to dress modestly and professionally.

Yeah no man has ever worn tight trousers and no woman has ever worn high heels to work.

Not all jobs are in offices where a certain dress code is common, many many people work in shorts / short skirts / boots / jeans / heels / even a tutu flashing knickers is suitable in some work places.

Personally I do think in general there is a correlation between those schools that manage to have a generally smart cohort and how well those pupils do. But I think it's more to do with the fact that if you have parents who care about how their children are turned out, they are more likely to care about school performance as well. And parental interest is a known factor in how well people do at school. But obviously this only applies across a population level, not on an individual basis

The pastoral head who inspects trouser arse tightness is also given to speeches about what goes on in 'the real world of business' in the context of DD's personality.

Fortunately DD isn't intending to work in 'business' and is getting an education for other reasons, so I'm not worrying too much about it.

There is in my observation a high correlation between sloppy uniform enforcement and poor quality education in a school. Even at my children's private school I can easily pick out the serious students and those not taking it seriously by the degree to which they adhere to uniform rules. Girls in particular covered in makeup, midriff skimming blouses and short skirts stand out a mile as not having their priorities oriented in the direction of learning.

I spent most of my teens braless in a rather tangential version of school uniform. I was also a geek. I got the second-best O Level results in my year and a scholarship to Oxford 18 months later (and did my grade 8 violin exam on coming back from the interview. I got a merit).

I don't give a flying fandango about the length of my 14 year old's skirt. She can borderline with school uniform all she likes.

MoreBeta wrote - "Girls in particular covered in makeup, midriff skimming blouses and short skirts stand out a mile as not having their priorities oriented in the direction of learning."

Why do you say "girls in particular" don't have their priorities oriented in the direction of learning, despite girls achieving better school qualifications than boys?

Is there any reason why I shouldn't treat your comment as an example of "she was wearing a short skirt, so she must be < insert insult/rape myth/sexist stereotype etc here >"?

There will be girls in schools wearing short skirts right now, who will end up well-educated and employable in jobs for leading employers.

As an ex teacher I have known very successful scruffy or "innovative" school uniform wearers. The main thing the kids who did best had in common were parents who were interested and invested in their children's education. And fairly often they were interested in their children looking smart as well.

Still don't like having to see underwear in my students who are in my care however.

I don't understand why it appears to be so difficult for school to formulate a uniform or dress code that is gender-neutral and is explained by reference to what is commonly considered acceptable in a workplace or in public.

I'd have thought all they need to do is specify that shoulders, midriffs, chests and thighs should be covered with non-transparent clothing, no underwear should be visible, and then probably throw in a few health-and-safety things like no flip-flops or open sandals or high heels or whatever. Job done.

It should be always and obviously unacceptable for any dress code to reference the possible effect of particular clothing styles on members of the opposite sex.

*Oh FGS!

Why do we have to have this discussion again?*

Yes we do. As some men people still seem to think a woman's intellectual worth is defined by the length of her skirt.

" There is in my observation a high correlation between sloppy uniform enforcement and poor quality education in a school."

could you give any examples of this 'observation'?

Haven't read since I last posted so apologies if I'm crashing into something but dd has just arrived home from school saying that she has been disciplined again for her trousers. Apparently I'm to replace them by Monday morning.

I feel a letter coming on...

replace the trousers with what tisleclerc?
Were they the wrong cut, fabric?

Did they "distract the boys"?

Are they jeggings type? My school had a problem with those as some of the cheaper ones could be see through, and then girls just started wearing leggings that were no more opaque than tights so even worse - so it was easier to ban them all.

I really don't know what to do about school dress codes. I hate the policing of what women wear but I did see this week a girl with a skirt so short I could see the crotch of her tights. Not just the reinforced upper leg area but the actual crotch which had sagged slightly. She looked awful and yes "inappropriate" not in a sexual way but in a messy not at all "smart" way. Her two friends with skirts maybe a couple of cm longer also looked inappropriate for school. I'd say the same about boys with boxer waistbands showing and low sling trousers.
What can schools do? Teenagers will always push the boundaries of any dress code.
And specifying suppliers and actual items is generally frowned upon by most parents as too expensive for all but the most exclusive private schools.

Yes showing the crotch area - that's what I was continually fighting against - when it was supposed to be knee length skirts... Well they may have been in year 3 but not year 9!

So if you work somewhere that requires a uniform and stipulates certain things you would all just flout that and risk losing your job? It's the same thing. A uniform has a purpose, boys and girls are in school for an education and part of that is learning to be correctly attired in the various situations ...
I have been teaching a long time and have seen all kinds of fashion. It is not a feminist issue it is one of common sense. I have walked upstairs behind girls and not been able to avoid thong views. I have sat in front of pupils and seen everything under the desk from knickers to nakedness (yes to the poster who said vulva) and even masturbation. Boys too with hands down pants but not as obvious or naked. That is the point.
It is ok for me as an older female to have a quiet word about what is on show but a young male teacher? Imagine that conversation at home "sir told me he could see my fanjo, pervert". Would be all round the school in seconds ...
Where I teach the uniform is very strict - flared skirts, 10 cm max above the knee, trousers not leggings and not skinnies, shirt, tie and blazer. Boys trousers must be worn at waste level and shirts tucked in. Only plain t-shirts worn. Staff are required to dress professionally.
At the school my son attends there is no such requirement and I have to say the girls look terrible as their blazers are longer than their ridiculous short and tight skirts.
Wear what you are required to ... A lot of our girls wear trousers, in winter skirts and tights. They look smart - nobody is sexualising them or saying they cannot be feminist but rules are rules ...

boys and girls are in school for an education and part of that is learning to be correctly attired in the various situations

I don't agree that the point of school is to teach you to wear appropriate dress. And the thing is, these kids didn't ask to be there. It's not like a job one opted for.

(The other thing is that all uniform looks horrible anyway. 'Smart' uniform looks even more horrible IMO.)

And in 30 years or so in the workplace the only time I've ever had to wear a suit - and I was running the comms at a v high-profile charity at the time - one suit was pink, with a short skirt, and the other was grape purple with narrow trousers.

Mother it's part Of a wider education - and just because in your life you have never had to wear a suit doesn't mean nobody else has either! Plus I said uniform - that can be anything from a team t- shirt to a giant banana - and whatever you have to stick to it.

I also hate the argument that kids didn't ask to be at school in a works where so many children don't get that opportunity.

World not works

The point of a uniform is to make every one look uniform. I like school uniform.

I liked wearing mine and I liked the fact my son's school had a strict uniform policy. This included knee length kilts for the girls, knee shorts for boys in junior primary and long trousers for boys in upper primary and secondary. It would annoy me if a parent having chosen the school then made a fuss about her child having to wear the school uniform.

The girl in the long halter neck dress looks as silly at school as I would if I turned up to the office in a long halter neck dress.

Children don't have to be in school. You as parents choose to send them to that school, and if you don't like the rules you are free to move schools or deregister them and home educate.