Understanding men

[cailindana]

I've had some interesting conversations with DH lately (who has recently got into feminism in a big way) about how patriarchy has affected him. It's something I'm interested in as I think it's part of the bigger picture and worth knowing in terms of combatting the effects of how our society is structured, both on women and men. As a woman of course I have limited insight into how men see the world and so would appreciate views specifically from men.

What DH has said to me is that he has been trained by his upbringing to overvalue what men do and undervalue what women do.
He says he has found it extremely hard to be in any way honest about his feelings as he has learned that it is not acceptable for him to share how he really feels.

Both of these things have contributed in large ways to the problems in our relationship and now that he's recognised them and tried to overcome them things have changed. I have to admit though I am a bit discombobulated by the change almost as though he doesn't quite fit my expectation of how men should be (indoctrinated in me by my sexist asshat of a father). So I've also had to change my attitude.

Any thoughts?

Do you really value that cailin?

I meant "we" as a society King. That's what our children see when we go on sight seeing tours etc. That's what's held up as valuable by our government.

"I think Erin Pizzey's huge contribution to the social paradigm shift regarding domestic violence is an utterly enormous contribution to not just our country, but the humanity." I know this is a bit of a tangent to the thread but it is partly a demonstration in how men view women. I am completely shocked by this statement. Do you actually know anything about Erin Pizzey? She thought a man who brutally and repeatedly sexually assaulted his wife was a nice bloke. She thinks women who suffer DV bring it on themselves and must enjoy it. Yes she helped to set up one of the first women's shelters but she has done a lot of damage to women and to how DV is viewed. However, she aligned herself with men so it doesn't completely surprise me she is lauded by a man.

Do you know what statues have been commissioned in the last couple of years? It's hard to say if the current government are erecting these things.

I certainly haven't heard of any statues of women being commissioned but I'd be happy if there were. Given the difficulty there was getting a woman on the five pound note (and the subsequent death and rape threats the women campaigning for it received) I'd imagine any woman who does take it on herself to get a monument featuring a woman commissioned has to have a lot of fight in her (and not mind having her life threatened).

I agree Buffy. I don't think any people have children for altruistic reasons or for the good of society and it's future. It's nearly always, when consenting, a selfish reason.

Do you feel that going to war and killing people is a more altruistic, less selfish thing to do than having children King?

Cailin, I think you will always get threats from bigots and scum. It's everywhere. Gareth bale got it last night

Do women only get lauded where their 'values' or priorities match men's? A bit like your DH cailin. Your priorities didn't match his when your children were smaller, so your work was considered lesser. Men's needs and priorities coming first.

I am quite shocked as well at the dismissal of childbirth on this thread and the fact it may not be beneficial to society. Because war is or something? In fact how the fuck is war/male violence beneficial?

The point is though King, that men were put on all the other notes with no comment at all, because men are the standard, it is just normal to commemorate them. In order to commemorate a woman, women have to fight and come up against bigots and death threats because we are not the norm, we are other and different.

Cailin, no, as I've said I'm anti war. I don't know what now would look like if we hadn't had resisted in, say, world war 2.

It's an interesting OP, cailin. I had written a long diatribe in response. But I can summarise. Your husband is a man-child, and a cock. As is your dad. I can't fix them. I can only fix me.

There was definitely a case of him seeing men's needs and priorities as coming first scallops because that is how his parents' marriage is and that's how society sees things, in general. So like I said, men are just on bank notes as the norm, why wouldn't you have them? But women, well a special case must be made for them you must prove they should be on it.

Here, men's wonderful sacrifice in war is seen as oh so important, but the sacrifice women make in childbirth - nothing, ordinary, not important.

No, Buffy, I'm happy to say giving birth can be work.

Fair enough Yops, but other contributions would also be helpful if you had any...

"You see, Mephistopholes, it's not that women have been kept from doing the good stuff, like soldiering, poetry, governing, etc, its that the patriarchy has defined what "the good stuff" is."

Thanks, good point. I hadn't considered that.

The altruistic thing was in response to cailin. Whom was speaking in terms of giving birth being so

"You see, Mephistopholes, it's not that women have been kept from doing the good stuff, like soldiering, poetry, governing, etc, its that the patriarchy has defined what "the good stuff" is.

Not only that, but once it's defined what the good stuff is, it then prevents women from engaging in it. So women do work and contribute but it's all entirely ignored. On this thread, in 2015, we have people saying giving birth is not really anything noteworthy. Why? Mainly because women do it and men can't. So therefore it doesn't fall within the remit of things that deserve recognition.

I agree Buffy. I'm anti-war. Anti -violence. I see these statues as stains. As I said earlier.
I was purely responding to cailin on the altruism of our soldiers.
No need to come across all john Lennon.