Understanding men

[cailindana]

I've had some interesting conversations with DH lately (who has recently got into feminism in a big way) about how patriarchy has affected him. It's something I'm interested in as I think it's part of the bigger picture and worth knowing in terms of combatting the effects of how our society is structured, both on women and men. As a woman of course I have limited insight into how men see the world and so would appreciate views specifically from men.

What DH has said to me is that he has been trained by his upbringing to overvalue what men do and undervalue what women do.
He says he has found it extremely hard to be in any way honest about his feelings as he has learned that it is not acceptable for him to share how he really feels.

Both of these things have contributed in large ways to the problems in our relationship and now that he's recognised them and tried to overcome them things have changed. I have to admit though I am a bit discombobulated by the change almost as though he doesn't quite fit my expectation of how men should be (indoctrinated in me by my sexist asshat of a father). So I've also had to change my attitude.

Any thoughts?

So a 'mother's day'?

it is literally called "labour"

Hmm... I do see where you're coming from Cailin, but there's argument to say that we couldn't do it without men! Yes I know it's not comparable, but women can't get pregnant on their own.

Men have to have an orgasm. I really don't think it's comparable in the slightest. Plenty of men do play a proper part in parenting, but plenty of other simply walk away. It is a fact that for every person in the world a woman had to go through physical risk to get them here. That is not true of men. And it is something to be thankful for. Not everything has to include men to be legitimate or worthy.

"in some cases SAHMs are made to feel lesser by WOHMs. And how on earth does that change? The WOHMs I know consider themselves to be feminists."

I'm not sure about this one - are you saying feminists devalue SAHMs?

Mother's day is marketing for card companies. I don't see it as being enough thanks very much all the same.

I don't think that's necessarily true Cailin.

There are many many people who wish they had never been born, my DP goes through phases like that because he was abandoned by his birth mother and sexually abused by his stepmother. I'm sure the children born in to extreme poverty aren't overly happy about it.

A Mother's Day. It doesn't have to look like what we know it.

Buffy, I thought you were referring to it as work, before? I suppose it's up to you to define.

Sorry x-post.

No I don't think feminists devalue SAHMs, that is too much of a generalisation. Some WOHMs I personally know devalue SAHMs and those particular women consider themselves to be feminists.

in some cases SAHMs are made to feel lesser by WOHMs. And how on earth does that change? The WOHMs I know consider themselves to be feminists.

It's so easy to buy into society's view of what is of value, and what is not. Which is what these particular women are doing.

As for SAHDs. How are they viewed by their male WOHD peers?

You could say that about anything though Rainbow. Should we not celebrate sport because some people hate it or can't participate? Pretty much everyone doesn't want war to happen - we still commemorate it. Your DP may wish he was never born, I don't think that's a good enough reason not to value the women who brought everyone into the world.

giving birth is literally called "labour". it's not like modern feminists are the first to have thought of it as a type of work

Sanity - we view a friend that stays at home with young children as a positive. We know how mundane and relentlessly routined it can be. He's good at it though

Well exactly Buffy. There are four pages here of people basically trying to argue that giving birth isn't that big a deal. Well thanks very much for that but I think it's a pretty massive fucking deal considering it's absolutely essential to keep the species going. And it all goes back to what I was saying at the start about women's contribution being undervalued. Even women themselves are saying "oh don't mind me, it's not that special" Eh? Why devalue yourself?

Is it the case that people who've had relatively easy pregnancies and labours minimise the danger more do you think?

I had easy pregnancy, but I'm certain that without modern medicine I wouldn't be here (and obviously neither would my kids). It really brought home to me how dangerous being pregnant is. I have a proper fear of getting pregnant again because of that danger which I don't think my DP has the same depth of feeling about (understandably possibly).

Perhaps people and men in particular have an easier time imagining the dangers of going to war, and minimise/don't think about/don't want to think about the dangers of childbirth, hence not equating the two as similarly valourious (is that a word? Chrome thinks not) acts

I don't think DP would ever value either his mother or his stepmother, and neither do I.

As valuable as motherhood is to society, not every woman who has given birth is a mother worthy of respect and admiration. There's a damn sight more to motherhood than giving birth.

And there's a damn sight more to womanhood than giving birth.

Buffy, can you define work? That was all I was asking. At no point have I said it's not hard and not valuable.

Fair enough Rainbow, we will disagree on this point.

Maybe I miss understood your Ecofeminism example in relation to child birth.

I'm pretty sure all soldiers/leaders/scientists/philosophers aren't worthy of respect and admiration, and yet they, as a group, get plenty.

Fair enough Cailin. I shall go now and ponder for a while

Indeed Chunky. Out of all those soldiers whose names are on plaques it's pretty certain that some of them are criminals and committed atrocious acts during the war, including in some cases the rape of many women. Yet there they are being commemorated anyway. Because they are valuable, because a man decided to try to kill people and other men had to go and kill them first. That's what we look up to. That's what we value.