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Original poster

Understanding men

375 replies

cailindana · 14/05/2015 11:17

I've had some interesting conversations with DH lately (who has recently got into feminism in a big way) about how patriarchy has affected him. It's something I'm interested in as I think it's part of the bigger picture and worth knowing in terms of combatting the effects of how our society is structured, both on women and men. As a woman of course I have limited insight into how men see the world and so would appreciate views specifically from men.

What DH has said to me is that he has been trained by his upbringing to overvalue what men do and undervalue what women do.
He says he has found it extremely hard to be in any way honest about his feelings as he has learned that it is not acceptable for him to share how he really feels.

Both of these things have contributed in large ways to the problems in our relationship and now that he's recognised them and tried to overcome them things have changed. I have to admit though I am a bit discombobulated by the change Confused almost as though he doesn't quite fit my expectation of how men should be (indoctrinated in me by my sexist asshat of a father). So I've also had to change my attitude.

Any thoughts?

OP posts:
King1982 · 14/05/2015 12:50

Cailin - don't think they are the same thing. I think they both fall in to the bracket of natural processes. Pregnancy, can be dangerous and obviously causes changes to the body. Ejaculation, barring blockages, carries no danger and lasts 5 seconds.
I believe the average conception, consenting, is a inherently selfish decision by the people involved. It doesn't make it safe though

TheMagnificientFour · 14/05/2015 12:52

It's only since he's taken on more at home himself he realises how wrong he was
So I've also had to change my attitude.

I fully agree cailindana. The way our society is organised is detrimental to both men and women and both need to adjust to any changes that happens.

Other things that men are endoctrinated about is the fact they are supposed to be the main earner with all the responsibility. That means the fear of losing said job for example.
Or the fact that their worth is often associated with their job and how far up the ladder they have gone.
They are also supposed to be 'strong' and not emotional (that's for women and weak) so can be detached form their own feelings.
Oh and they should just be grateful that a woman wants to have sex with them.

Now that could be my own interpretation of what I see around me. Unfortunatly it isn't. It's from Brene Brown studies around shame etc...

King1982 · 14/05/2015 12:53

Hap - so are you pleased that your friends chose to have children with these men? Why are you complacent with your friends, help them make better decisions and support them to make changes

MephistophelesApprentice · 14/05/2015 12:55

SanityClause

I'm sorry if it appeared that way, but actually for some reason I could only see cailindana's posts and so was only responding to those ones. I was alarmed to see how many I've missed.

But evidently today is not one of my days for effective communication, so I'll cease my participation in this thread.

MephistophelesApprentice · 14/05/2015 12:55

SanityClause

I'm sorry if it appeared that way, but actually for some reason I could only see cailindana's posts and so was only responding to those ones. I was alarmed to see how many I've missed.

But evidently today is not one of my days for effective communication, so I'll cease my participation in this thread.

Original poster
cailindana · 14/05/2015 12:58

I'm not shouting at him Rainbow, I'm discussing the points he raised with him.

We live in a society where we have ceremonies for situations where men shoot and kill each other but we see situations where women go through tremendous pain to bring people into the world as "ordinary." To me that is fucked up. Unintellectual enough for you?

What you've said chimes with what DH has said Magnificent. I've started working more and bringing in more money and he feels a lot of pressure has been relieved on him from that - part of the reason he neglected home stuff is he felt bringing in money was his thing. But at the same time he devalued everything I was doing to make our life possible, plus I was also bringing in some money, not a lot but not a tiny amount either.

OP posts:
HapShawl · 14/05/2015 12:59

i haven't said i'm not doing that king (nor have i said that i am not active in my support for other women beyond my own friendship circle) - but i'm also not the one saying that this is predominantly a problem for those aged 50+yo. it may be that you spend your time consciousness-raising about this stuff - fantastic if so - but your original post came across as extremely complacent about the enlightened attitude of the under-50s and i think that is worrying if that is indeed how you feel

Original poster
cailindana · 14/05/2015 13:00

It's alright Mephistopheles I know you were responding in good faith. There's always someone on a feminist thread slapping women down for actually daring to argue with a man. We're supposed to be nice.

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IKnowIAmButWhatAreYou · 14/05/2015 13:02

I realise that it's diverting the flow of the OP and I'm sorry, but I'm another one that doesn't think pregnancy deserves a statue & as such is a bad example.

The fact is that the majority of those statues were erected decades or centuries ago - the more modern ones tend to be a bit more balanced and relate to less bloodthirsty topics on the whole.

As with most things, it won't change overnight, but it is changing...

Original poster
cailindana · 14/05/2015 13:03

I'm curious as to why you don't think there should be a commemoration of the women who brought everyone into the world IKnow?

OP posts:
King1982 · 14/05/2015 13:06

Hap shawl - I was speaking about what I know to be true about the people around me and myself.
Maybe we spend our time with very different characters

Original poster
cailindana · 14/05/2015 13:07

Something that I didn't quite expect in my exploration of the issue with DH (and I accept this is personal to us, and not necessarily a general thing) is his expectation that his life should be pretty easy really and a sort of immature foot stamping attitude to things that were intractably hard such as having a newborn and toddler. I just sucked it up and got on with it but he (and he admits this himself) did what he could to avoid engaging with it, and felt he shouldn't have to take on such a burden. I've seen it in other men - a sense that things are too hard so they'll just walk away, much more so that women. I wonder does growing up as the favoured class lead you to expect life to be easier than it actually is? Is it the case that women expect more adversity because things aren't so easy for them and so handle life that bit better?

OP posts:
King1982 · 14/05/2015 13:09

Cailin - why do you think their should be a statue?

RainbowFlutterby · 14/05/2015 13:10

I have a child, I don't feel extraordinary. The love I have for him and he has for me is enough.

It is ordinary in the sense that it is what women are designed to do and that's not the patriarchy, just biology.

I'm not slapping anyone down for arguing with a man any more than I am being slapped down for daring to disagree with a feminist.

Original poster
cailindana · 14/05/2015 13:11

Not necessarily a statue, although I suppose that could be part of it. I would like recognition of the fact that for every one of the 7 or so billion people on the planet a woman took a risk to bring that person into the world. And that's not a small thing. I'd like recognition of the fact that women may not have fought in as many wars or invented as many things but were weren't doing nothing all those years - we were producing every single person who has lived and in many cases bringing them up too. Why not celebrate it?

OP posts:
Original poster
cailindana · 14/05/2015 13:12

Women are designed to do it, but they don't have to do it Rainbow. And if they didn't do it, the human race would die out. So it is pretty important. I'm just wondering why we would avoid recognising that when we recognise violence so readily?

OP posts:
King1982 · 14/05/2015 13:12

Cailin, I think that's personal to your DH. He sounds like a twat.
I don't expect life to be easy. I think when you are young, everyone has a plan for their life, what they will be doing by a certain age, etc. very rarely do these pan out.

King1982 · 14/05/2015 13:14

I don't think women were "designed".

King1982 · 14/05/2015 13:16

Instead of a statue, we could have a 'mother's day'.

ApocalypseThen · 14/05/2015 13:19

I agree, Cailin, the value of giving birth, the struggle to do it, the risk involved, completely overlooked by society. Maybe we don't need a statue to the women who've done it, but women die to do it - where's the tomb of the unknown mother to remember the millions who have sacrificed their lives for the greater good?

King1982 · 14/05/2015 13:21

Would you think if you value motherhood more in society. It will put even more pressure on women (men) to have children. Would it be too damaging to the infertile?

BuffyNeverBreaks · 14/05/2015 13:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RainbowFlutterby · 14/05/2015 13:23

Hmm... I do see where you're coming from Cailin, but there's argument to say that we couldn't do it without men! Yes I know it's not comparable, but women can't get pregnant on their own.

The problem really is that motherhood is no longer seen as a valuable role in society, in some cases SAHMs are made to feel lesser by WOHMs. And how on earth does that change? The WOHMs I know consider themselves to be feminists.

King1982 · 14/05/2015 13:24

Would you define giving birth as "work"?

Original poster
cailindana · 14/05/2015 13:24

Would you think if you value motherhood more in society. It will put even more pressure on women (men) to have children. Would it be too damaging to the infertile?

No. Everyone in the entire world has a mother. So everyone can participate in being glad a woman put herself at risk to bring them into the world. You don't have to have your own children at all.

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