Understanding men

[cailindana]

I've had some interesting conversations with DH lately (who has recently got into feminism in a big way) about how patriarchy has affected him. It's something I'm interested in as I think it's part of the bigger picture and worth knowing in terms of combatting the effects of how our society is structured, both on women and men. As a woman of course I have limited insight into how men see the world and so would appreciate views specifically from men.

What DH has said to me is that he has been trained by his upbringing to overvalue what men do and undervalue what women do.
He says he has found it extremely hard to be in any way honest about his feelings as he has learned that it is not acceptable for him to share how he really feels.

Both of these things have contributed in large ways to the problems in our relationship and now that he's recognised them and tried to overcome them things have changed. I have to admit though I am a bit discombobulated by the change almost as though he doesn't quite fit my expectation of how men should be (indoctrinated in me by my sexist asshat of a father). So I've also had to change my attitude.

Any thoughts?

Mr Nosey, I don't think that's a bad explanation at all. It's quite complicated and I don't think anyone can make a definitive ruling on all eventualities.

I often have to travel home late at night from work and if a colleague says 'take care, text me when you get home' I don't think this is the same as responding to me telling you a man tried to attack me at a bus stop was my own fault for being on my own late at night. There's genuine concern and there's victim blaming.

I would also say that I reserve the right to make someone with a nice but maybe misguided intention of being friendly feel a bit sad by ignoring or avoiding them. Of all the people who have tried to talk to me late at night when I'm alone, the majority are not just being friendly, so it's sensible to make 1 guy feel I'm unfriendly every so often if it puts off the many who aren't.

I'm sure that most feminists would agree that it isn't the fact that the complexity of issues such as victim blaming means you are figuring it out still, that is the thing they find annoying. It's the fact that when someone says that being a woman is dangerous, that a lot of people's first response isn't 'please tell me more about this so I can understand' it is 'you must have been mistaken and that man was just innocently saying hello'.

MrN, the other thing to remember is that we are all socialised together.

So a man walking up to a woman (or indeed to a man) in an underground car park or quiet, dark street, will (or should) be aware that her instincts will be signalling "threat" to her.

If he continues that approach and uses entitled language, gets too close to her personal space etc and ignores all this, then any conclusion she is drawing will only be reinforced.

If his intentions were benign then he might get offended if she is gets in her car or crosses the road to get away.

But he'd be wrong to be offended, don't you think?

X post with Girl.

I'm on a terribly slow connection so doing lots of x posting!

OK, thanks for your patience and great explanations. I am understanding some of the views of women a lot more now, which I know wasn't the point of the thread
Sorry but have to dash.

Recently there were some posters on the tube targeted at men Lambeth poster campaign and I can't remember seeing anything like them before. I don't think posters telling girls not to get raped are comparable to posters telling people to keep valuables out of sight if leaving them in a car, because there isn't a stigma against having your car broken into. If someone is the victim of a mugging then they don't get their character torn apart by people telling them that they shouldn't have been using their phone if they didn't want it nicked.

I don't really have any problem with a poster about keeping an eye on your drink as long as it's advice for everyone. Because everyone should be aware of their safety and other people's. It's the fact that being raped is treated like a crime.

Definitely BlackRider! I remember how confused I was when I was younger when my body started to be something that I was suddenly doing to other people, when in reality I wasn't behaving differently at all and couldn't have even if I'd tried!

The point about not warning men - don't get too pissed, don't go home via dark alleyways or unlicensed cabs, is a valid one. We don't do it. And I've said this elsewhere, but I have always assumed it's because, as men, we almost shrug our shoulders and say, 'Well, shit happens'.

We might get beaten up, mugged, even sexually assaulted, but for the most part I think the attitude between men is 'unlucky, dude, wrong place wrong time'. And sometimes even, 'That's tough, but drinking in that pub? What were you thinking??'

So, it isn't right - no-one deserves a shoeing for drinking in the wrong place, or looking at someone funny. But I think we kind of resign ourselves to it as just some part of life, albeit a crappy one.

I am not saying anyone should have to adopt this attitude to being harmed in any way. I am trying to explain a school of thought in therm of the OP, 'Understanding men'.

IMO women feel all men are potential rapists because they have been trained to feel that way by victim blaming advice. Women and only women are targeted by posters saying don't get drunk, watch out for your friends, don't get into unlicensed taxis. Women are advised by parents and friends not to walk certain places. What other conclusion are we to come to but that rapists are everywhere?

The way I see it, Yops, is that men are not warned because their lives and freedom are important. You can't tell men not to go out, not to take a taxi because they're entitled to do those things and telling them not to infringes on their freedom. Men are the ones who commit rape so if we're going to restrict anyone, tell anyone to be careful, not go places etc surely it should be them? But no of course we can't restrict men, they are supposed to be there. Far better to tell women to stay out of men's way. On some level they ask for it anyway, don't they? By flaunting themselves and falling around drunk. Tell them to behave themselves and the men might leave them alone.

Well cailin, that is your viewpoint. I am not going to tell you it is any less valid than mine. What I am trying to express is how this stuff works between men, and how we see the world. Not how you see it, or how it makes you feel.

If we saw each other as important, we wouldn't fight, we wouldn't impose our will on each other, we wouldn't subjugate, or torture, or behead, or put in a cage and set on fire, or taunt each other online, or all the other daily shit.

I can sense your anger over this, so if it's best that I shut up then I will. I am not here for an argument.

I'm not arguing. I'm stating my opinion. When you say 'if we saw each other as important...' Who is 'we' - people in general or men? I ask because the crimes you list are almost exclusively carried out by men.

Good.

'We' as in men. You were saying 'men are not warned because their lives and freedom are important '. I am saying that if men saw each other as important, they would not do the things I listed. We don't warn each other because for us, we don't think too much about these things. I am generalising here, obviously.

But why don't you think about these things? Why is it that you're not expected to be afraid while women are? That's a genuine question btw.

Cailin, I don't really know. It's just resignation, I think. And, I never thought of it before as preparing women to be afraid. I always thought of it more as a protective warning. Sounds like that is pretty wide of the mark, sadly.

One thing though - I think conversations like this are lacking. It's only when you discuss stuff that you realise how others around you can feel wildly different about a common subject. So thanks for the OP. I have to go out in a few minutes, so not ignoring, but I'll be interested later to see if other men think I am wide of the mark. As well as your thoughts, of course.

A problem with the rape prevention posters that has just occurred to me, is that if in a local area there are con artists at work, or a spate of murders/muggings. You might see a targeted message warning people of a current and present threat.

All rape posters seem to do is encourage women to be a state of high alert at all times, even the terror threat level goes down occasionally.

So I guess the message that's beamed out by the police runs something like this : "umm lots of rapists about, and we're going to do fuck & all about it, so ladies you may as well keep yourselfs safe, and not trouble us with the problem yeah?"

By telling women not to get drunk etc you conveniently tell the story that 1) women contribute to rape through their silly, irresponsible behaviour 2) rape happens on dark streets when strangers pick out the silly irresponsible woman (it doesn't) 3) rape is like a force of nature, nothing deliberate, just something that happens, something that women need to avoid. That story ignores one important fact: men commit rape deliberately. We live in a world where a male-dominated police force and judiciary looked at the thousands of women raped every year and didn't say 'shit, men are a real danger to women, aren't they , we'd better target the perpetrators to reduce the crime.' No, they looked at the situation and said 'women get raped in their thousands, we must change women's behaviour.' IMO the reason for that is that simply that the world has been male dominated, so measures suit men and punish women, even for crimes they don't commit. That's changing now, thankfully, but there is still a strong reluctance to admit that male violence is a major problem in our society.

In your case he didn't pick out the silly irresponsible woman who was not following all the good advice she'd been given on how to avoid rape. He targeted a woman going about her normal life, same as every other woman who is raped. But I agree that we mustn't make it seem like stranger rape doesn't happen, it does. It happens to ordinary women who did nothing wrong.

IMO women feel all men are potential rapists because they have been trained to feel that way by victim blaming advice

Maybe for some men, mostly its a case of.."I see the girls walk by, dressed in their summer clothes. I have to turn my head until my darkness goes".