Understanding men

[cailindana]

I've had some interesting conversations with DH lately (who has recently got into feminism in a big way) about how patriarchy has affected him. It's something I'm interested in as I think it's part of the bigger picture and worth knowing in terms of combatting the effects of how our society is structured, both on women and men. As a woman of course I have limited insight into how men see the world and so would appreciate views specifically from men.

What DH has said to me is that he has been trained by his upbringing to overvalue what men do and undervalue what women do.
He says he has found it extremely hard to be in any way honest about his feelings as he has learned that it is not acceptable for him to share how he really feels.

Both of these things have contributed in large ways to the problems in our relationship and now that he's recognised them and tried to overcome them things have changed. I have to admit though I am a bit discombobulated by the change almost as though he doesn't quite fit my expectation of how men should be (indoctrinated in me by my sexist asshat of a father). So I've also had to change my attitude.

Any thoughts?

What did Nelson, for example, do to get up there on that bloody great plinth?

Self-sacrificing, fair enough
Results in social ostracism - not his day, it didn't. Even today, the navy is a respectable part of the establishment, and even those going to fight what is widely perceived to be an unjust war (Iraq, for example) are deemed to have little choice.
Benefits society as a whole - I need a historian to explain to me why this particular battle made a blind bit of difference to British or French society

You seem to think having babies is something that just happens to women, Mephistopheles - is that the case? As in, it's not something they actively choose to do, and therefore not really worth anything?

Hapshawl - because the OP's husbands views are more normalised in people 50+. I'm surprised the OP whom is a feminist would marry such a biggoted knob in the first place. It's bizarre. Fair play for him for coming to the self realisation that he is a knob but it seems like a weird coupling

My own father was a raging sexist shithead King so it took me a while to realise what was going on in our relationship.

You see, Mephistopholes, it's not that women have been kept from doing the good stuff, like soldiering, poetry, governing, etc, its that the patriarchy has defined what "the good stuff" is.

Childcare, cleaning and hairdressing are low paid work, as they are deemed to be low skilled work. They all require huge anounts of skill. It's just that men, traditionally, haven't done them, so they have been deemed unimportant, and therefore not worthy of much remuneration.

So maybe that's your answer cailin. Having seems the link between your DH and you, and your attitudes. My friends and I didn't. We don't undervalue work done by women. So I think parents attitudes are a big factor.
How old is your Husband, by the way?

Out of interest Mephistopheles - what contributions from women should we value?

I think Erin Pizzey's huge contribution to the social paradigm shift regarding domestic violence is an utterly enormous contribution to not just our country, but the humanity. Commodore Grace Hopper invented the worlds first multi-engine programming code - she literally built the modern world.

The great tragedy of patriarchy is that women were held back from contributing for so many centuries and are still only given limited means to do so.

But I'll take Buffy's advice.

What I'm wondering Mephistopheles is who decides what warrants a statue (or other celebration).I understand the need to recognise the contribution of soldiers but I would also like to see celebrations of other contributions, made both by women and men. And I see producing the next generation as a huge contribution by women. But you are sitting there telling me it's not, that it doesn't warrant any celebration. Why?

i think your assumption is wrong re ages king - or at least it isn't so "de-normalised" among many younger men as you would like to think. i think it is dangerous for men and women of our age-group (if we are indeed of a similar age) to assume that the socialisation of generations past is no longer an issue for us and that we can stop examining ourselves for ingrained prejudices and assumptions. you can see on the relationships boards on MN, and i can see it among some (though not all) of my friends who have had children - the split in workload and value of workload reflects cailin's previous situation in the OP

The great tragedy of patriarchy is that women were held back from contributing for so many centuries and are still only given limited means to do so.

Sorry what? We were held back from contributing? So we did nothing, we produced nothing? Except of course every living person on the planet. That's what we contributed. But you're saying it doesn't count and doesn't need celebrating. You're saying you get to decide what needs celebrating and your criteria only consists of certain things that men also do. Do you want not to celebrate women giving life because men can't also do that?

What is the fixation with statues? When did become so high on the list of celebrations? As someone that is anti war, I see them more as a stain on whom they represent.

There's no fixation on statues, it's simply something we're discussing at the moment King. If you want to engage with what the thread is actually about, feel free.

Hap shawl - that's your friends

and what? their experiences aren't important?

Ok I personally, I don't think we need statues for pregnancy. Nor do we need them for ejaculating. I've travelled in Asia and they love male and female fertility statues. Maybe they could take off.
I think there should be a balance of women, if we have to have statues.
Does anyone know how commissioned statues in 2015, have been distributed

Women have contributed plenty. We haven't actually sat on our arses for the last 5,000 years doing nothing. It's just that men have decided that they're going to ignore what we've done and prevent us from doing the things they want to put value on. You seem to think Mephistopheles that our aim should be ensuring women can do the things that men value so that they can also be valued. I agree that women should be able to do whatever men do, of course, but I also think that we should be looking at what women do and have always done and wonder why we haven't valued that in the past. And we should start valuing it, right now.

This is a genuine question King - do you think pregnancy and ejaculating are on a par? Do you think they're essentially the same thing?

Hap - I was commenting on my friends. Your friends views are their views. I also said that sexist attitudes tend to be more common in 50+. That is what I have seen. I don't know what you are arguing with me about?
How old is the DH, anyway?

seriously, we cannot be complacent about this. men who haven't developed an ingrained attitude that work that women traditionally do, and the work the women around them actually do, is not work of value - they need to be getting out there and explaining this to their peers who haven't had this enlightened upbringing. they can't just sit back and say "well me and my mates are fine, so not my problem"

You're not bothering to read any responses, are you Mephistopholes? You know what women need, and you are going to mansplain it to us.

Didn't take long for this entire thread to go tits up.

That's really helpful cadno, thanks. Bye now.

the men i am talking about are not my friends, king

You're welcome. Bye.

Understanding men?

Mephistopheles is trying to engage, but you're just shouting at him!

May be the statues are about doing something out of the ordinary? I suppose giving birth is fairly ordinary in the bid scheme of things.

No, don't go all intellectual on me and telling me I know nothing.