Understanding men

[cailindana]

I've had some interesting conversations with DH lately (who has recently got into feminism in a big way) about how patriarchy has affected him. It's something I'm interested in as I think it's part of the bigger picture and worth knowing in terms of combatting the effects of how our society is structured, both on women and men. As a woman of course I have limited insight into how men see the world and so would appreciate views specifically from men.

What DH has said to me is that he has been trained by his upbringing to overvalue what men do and undervalue what women do.
He says he has found it extremely hard to be in any way honest about his feelings as he has learned that it is not acceptable for him to share how he really feels.

Both of these things have contributed in large ways to the problems in our relationship and now that he's recognised them and tried to overcome them things have changed. I have to admit though I am a bit discombobulated by the change almost as though he doesn't quite fit my expectation of how men should be (indoctrinated in me by my sexist asshat of a father). So I've also had to change my attitude.

Any thoughts?

I have no idea what that means cadno.

It's a quote from Paint It Black by the Rolling Stones, Cailin.

Unclear what it's doing on your thread, though!

Another queation for men: DH said he felt he had been trained not fo feel or express emotion in general. He also feared feeling angry. Another male friend is similar - seems to fear his own emotions, particularly anger. Is that something you've experienced?

Cailin I'll come back to the reason for the "paint it black" quote later (although in a way it relates to the below too), but I just wanted to answer your question about anger. I have had a problem with anger in the past - it has caused a lot of problems. But I have recently been diagnosed with a condition called Graves disease - to cut a potentially long story short - now that this is being treated with a drug to reduce my thyroxine levels, I find that it is a massive help with my anger.

As my Graves disease worsened I was becoming increasingly short tempered even when sober - but it was far worse when I'd been drinking, no matter how jolly I'd be starting out on a night, suddenly (and with little external trigger) a switch would flick in my head and an uncontrollable anger would kick in. Thank sweet baby cheeses for my medicine.

I don't know if I would have used the word 'fear' for it, frustrated I couldn't overcome it and worried that eventually it would land me in problems with the cops - but it wasn't something I was 'afraid' about.

I missed out the important bit - Tsk - I think a promising avenue for solving much of male behaviour problems in society will come from a greater understanding and appreciation of the effects that these chemical messengers - hormones - have on us - and then treating them.

Treating them how?

With other chemicals - my thyroxine imbalance is treated by a chemical called carbimazole and I slip myself a couple of beta-blockers when going out to drink.

The development of drugs to counter that toxic combination of testosterone / adrenaline will cost money - but an even bigger challenge will to make them acceptable to men in general. Of course, there is always the manual hand treatment for immediate relief - but again overcoming the social inhibitions with that too is the trick.

"Of course, there is always the manual hand treatment for immediate relief - but again overcoming the social inhibitions with that too is the trick."

WTF?

"WTF" - yep, that's it - that's the social inhibition right there. The OP talks about lacking an insight into men. Talk to the DP (if its a man) in your life about the after-effect of ejaculation - that wonderful feeling of calm that floods over one.

If that's not a body wide shutting down of some chemical hormone receptor, then what is it ?

Are you talking about wanking in public to curb your urge to fight?

Let me get this straight cadno. Are you saying men are at the mercy of their hormones, therefore we must medicate them and allow them to wank in public to calm them down?

Not in public - that is a step too far.

And its not helpful to talk about being at the "mercy of" - this is primarily a biological problem, I think it better to keep immotive language out of it.

Ok at the mercy of was the wrong phrase. But the rest of it is still unclear - are you saying men should be medicated to control the effect hormones have on their behaviour? And what's the wanking thing about??

Yes - sorry it be so coy / obtuse - some people might be still having their breakfasts.

Anybody out there know about the endocrinial effect of the male orgasm ?

"Another queation for men: DH said he felt he had been trained not fo feel or express emotion in general. He also feared feeling angry. Another male friend is similar - seems to fear his own emotions, particularly anger. Is that something you've experienced?"

Definitely, repressed emotions is probably something that is destroying my relationship. Fear of anger is particularly an issue, the need to remain in control and possibly more importantly, keep that mask on to demonstrate to all others that you are in control. Anger I suppose feels like the ultimate expression of loss of control. I get cross and frustrated, but it quickly subsides (or is crushed!).

I had a recent family bereavement, female siblings all experienced the whole gamut of emotions. I just felt overwhelming sadness. That kind of highlighted my own emotional state. It's a bit weird, kind of like dissociating oneself and looking at it from a neutral bystanders perspective.

So what are the social inhibitions for men wanking in private?

Yops post is spot on.

It may be more subtle but men do change behaviour to stay safe. There are pubs, streets, areas etc I would never go to. I think the difference is we are never told to.

I remember on numerous occasions my friends and I being a bit to drunk, or going to a dodgy houseparty etc and one of us would end up getting hit, or robbed. The overriding response was "we shouldn't have gone", "we were a bit too loud and drunk we probably deserved it".

I suppose there is an attitude in society that when bad things happen, if you haven't behaved in a way that is completely innocent then you are partly to blame.

" if you haven't behaved in a way that is completely innocent then"

Going to a party is completely innocent, surely?

Going to a party is completely innocent, surely?

I think Mengogs point is that he'd gone to a party in a dodgy area or with dodgy people.

It may have been his right to go there, but it wasn't the cleverest thing to do.

There are lots of areas that I wouldn't go on my own, there are some parts of London I've found my self in after taking a wrong turn on the way to the tube that I feel I really should get out of quickly as I know I stand out & am quite likely to attract some unwanted attention - it's happened. (Not just in London & not just in the UK).

So I modify my behaviour and avoid those areas - I see it as common sense and a "survival trait" if you will...

Yeah that's my point.

Much like a story a friend relayed about walking through Harlem, New York at night. Two white guys. The police turned up and chucked them in a van, drove them out of the area.

Anyone should be able to walk down a street without fear. However, they were in a very rough part of Harlem, they were white, drunk. If something had happened, rightly or wrongly, I would have called them idiots for being there in the first place.

Men are the same species as yourself, believe it or not. Aside from a different hormone ratio and stuff between the legs, men and women aren't as different as you want to believe. Most of the differences IMO are due to upbringing.

"If something had happened, rightly or wrongly, I would have called them idiots for being there in the first place."

VICTIM BLAMING!!!!!!!!!

(you see what I did there?)

I'm a man