Feminist pub XIX: The Bluestocking meanders into May

[YonicScrewdriver]

We're running at about six weeks per pub at the moment! So if you want chat with a feminist flavour, or with fellow feminists, or just want to admire our patriarchy blaster cannon and goat - welcome!

Last pub Here

Assuming you know her pretty well, no, I wouldn't find it offensive and I say similar to my female friends.

Hello all, someone recommended the pub once as a friendly place to post feminist frustrations so here goes! A junior colleague came to me today to ask what i thought about being a woman and mother in my field. Shes deciding which branch to take and is worried about the attitudes and difficulties she might face as a single mum. Shes already ruled out a number of options because of previous incidents I know women face discrimination in all fields and i recognised much of what she had told me, particularly from my own days as a junior and in other branches. Some of the overt and direct examples she gave me about her and her friends make me so despondent though. The one that particularly sticks was the woman who complained about being repeatedly harrassed by a male senior and when she complained nothing happened to the male senior but she was asked to undertake counselling before she could progress further in her career. i offered to support her if she ever had any complaints she wanted to make but understandably it wasnt something she wanted to do. I hope I also encouraged her to consider my specialty.

Im mostly just venting a bit but i also wondered what experience others might have of supporting women in their workplace and if anyone has any suggestions? Im not sure i know of anyone obvious i could approach irl

Anyone telling me to "sort myself out" will get at best a death stare or "what exactly do you mean by that" in an unfriendly manner, I'm afraid. You don't want to know what I would say in a bad mood. In fact I myself am a bit worried about what I might say in a bad mood....

Apple That sounds awful. :( I don't know how to support women in the workplace because nobody has ever done it for me. But I remember some article I read not so long ago somewhere about micro-affirmation which sounded like the kind of doable, practical everyday thing. Let me try to find it again.

I think another of my anxieties is that when talking to her I might have laboured too much on the injustice side 'yes its rubbish and women are discriminated against' rather than encouraging her to persevere.

I found this - skimmed through and looks interesting. Also this.

I think it is important to have injustices acknowledged. Half the time people tell you that you are imagining it ...

So it's Game of Thrones and a buzzfeed article, but perhaps I will read the books now - I'd assumed that the TV series was a fair representation and that on that basis I wasn't really interested in the books (although I have been watching the show) but it seems that I need to swap and read the books but not watch the show, that the show is taking an already fantasy medieval setting (excuse for lots of bad things) and adding yet more abuse of women on top.

www.buzzfeed.com/lukebailey/game-of-thrones#.ny80L0dxa

I used 'sort yourself out' as an example of something that I might say, it could be anything really. Like I said, I treat the men the same, the precious flowers get no speshul treatment...

Apple, your friend should come and work for the company I work for. Women are valued, and most departmental managers (who are amongst those I call 'woman') are female. One of these is a 21 yr old who was promoted when her former boss moved to another job closer to her home that paid more. She was the only woman who applied for the job and got it on merit.

Yonic, all of these people I see every working day, and have done for 6 months, and they all tell me things about their lives, so, yes, I know them and like them. Whether they like me or not doesn't really matter, I'm just a temp and am therefore immediately replaceable should it be deemed I crossed a line. I don't consciously hold back, I just be myself and I'm genuinely interested in other peoples' lives.

I also call my daughters 'woman', and their 15 year old sister, who I'm proud to say is getting into feminism thanks to the indoctrination (!) of my youngest. And their mother, who's a really strong woman who takes no shit. I'm just glad to count her amongst my admittedly small list of friends.

Well, you asked and I answered.

Probably answered the same if yonic says it to me. Watch it yonic!

Thanks LordCopper I like the idea of that. Many small positive, noticing, supportive interactions adding up to a bigger effect.

Doctor - I dont know but i have a feeling there would be less discrimination in an interview situation where I work - but I suspect its mostly a case of women ruling themselves out before they apply.
As for your other question, I think I'd be a bit surprised to be addressed as 'woman' but probably not offended. I do get offended at being called 'lady', especially when used as an attachment to my job title. Someone called me 'mate' in a fairly formal meeting today which was also surprising but not offensive

Oh, hmm. I would definitely see it as a between mates thing (it has a "come along, Pond" vibe)

I definitely don't like being addressed as "lady" or worse still, "girl". "Woman" is ok. But mostly I like to be addressed as me.

There was a thread, wasn't there, about how to address a group of women, or a mixed group. I guess there isn't really a consensus...

Not keen on being addressed as 'girl', 'woman' I don't mind but it sounds a bit... abrupt? I can't think of a scenario where I would say 'excuse me woman/man'?

Interesting point about women ruling themselves out. I've been umming and ahhing over applying for a position. I'm sort of qualified for it, but maybe not quite, but I'm confident I could do the work iyswim. I don't know why I'm postulating because applying would do no harm. But anyway, something in me feels like I shouldn't apply for things that I'm not explicitly qualified for. I should probably just do it.

chunky that GoT scene... urgh. Just one in a long line of rape-as-entertainment. And making the characters ordeal all about how it affects another male character too. I'm losing the will with GoT. Feel like I've invested too much time watching it to just give up, but I'm not enjoying it either.

hoppy - yes, I know exactly what you mean about not really enjoying it, but watching it just because you've spent so long watching it already..

Just apply for that job - the worst thing that can happen is they say no - never have modesty when applying for jobs - otherwise how will they know what you can really do. Everyone assumes that a CV is spun a bit to sound better, so if you don't do that then you're already running with a handicap compared to the boasters.

Woman does sound abrupt, but I think we need to change that. Ladies/girls can be insulting and smarmy (not always, but sometimes), I think abrupt is preferable to that!

I should. I will. Give me something to do this weekend. Thanks!

hoppy, do it!

I stopped watching GoT a while ago because I just couldn't bear the violence.

I have now done TWO interviews with two different firms that went really well but am waiting to hear more...I hate waiting!

hoppy, do it! There's that thing about women only apply when they've got about 80% of the qualifications, men will go for it with a far lower amount. Think like a man! (In terms of job applications, anyway.)

(Also, I have some thoughts on supporting women at work, but they will have to wait till this evening.)

I've not watched GoT, my nephew keeps telling me how great it is, and wants to talk about it with me, but I've never been able to watch any kind of sexual violence scene without, at best getting a burning bile sensation at the back if my throat, or usually having to leave the room as I get shakey and feel like my heart is going to burst out if my chest. If I know a rape scene is in a film, I can never really relax because I have my finger on fast forward in preparation. I don't know why it upsets me so much.

I've had the "sort yourself out woman" type comments, and for me, it depends on context, if it's said in anger, I'm likely to say "fuck off" but i have had a friend say it once as we were laughing, after I made her tea, when she had said coffee three times. Thinking on myself, I've realised I say "man" a lot. Like "aww man, I've forgot something" "howay man, we're gonna be late". I dunno if it's a north east thing, it's only something I've just realised I do without giving any thought to how it sounds or comes across.

The one that really upset me recently was the series Banished that was on TV recently. Ive not seen GoT.
Definitely apply hoppy. I have really started to notice how women don't put themselves forward for many things at work. Both entire posts but also smaller tasks or opportunities.
I had a look at an organisation for women in my profession this morning. Unfortunately one of the first articles I looked at tallked about women being 'wired' differently, for example to worry more than men. Thats put me off this group I fear.

I have never really understood that whole fantasy (it is fantasy, right?) genre or SciFi type things, not really interested in Star Wars, anime, computer games etc. etc. Which is strange as I am rather geeky. It seems to be a big focus of some feminist campaigns especially around allowing girls to like things that aren't seen as "for girls" e.g.

the Star Wars campaign against bullying:

www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/24/10-year-old-star-wars-girls-bullied_n_5513190.html

Man vs Pink:

manvspink.com/

I am not quite sure why but apart from the bullying aspect, which is obviously awful, and the idea that children should be free to like what they want to like, I'm not sure what to think about this type of popular media because is it right that they've been hijacked by men and boys? If not, does that mean I should try to like them? Or at least try to present them fairly to my children, by making sure they know they aren't just for boys?

It's a bit like trains. I could really not care less, DS is keen, do I have to pretend to be keen for him? To show DD that trains aren't just for boys, should she happen to be interested? Will she dismiss them as just for boys if I don't?

LOL I sometimes feel personally responsible to reverse some trends, like girls don't do electronics or boys don't do glitter or something. But eventually you realise that you are who you are and cannot do or like everything... But will think more on this and say more later. Bloody school run, interferes with Important things.

Dr - I really don't think you need to try to feign interest in something that you're not into (or conversely, downplay something that happens to be stereotypically female). Make it about personal individual preferences. If someone starts trotting out a stereotype it's easy nowadays to find lots of examples of girls doing x or boys doing y.

V good point Errol.

I hope this doesn't mean I have to watch Bob the Builder though to point Wendy out to DS...

(Sorry, I should say, Bob the Boulder Fix Fix Fix as that is what DS calls it...)