Transgender kids article in today's Guardian

[TerraNovice]

Did anyone see this article about Louis Theroux's documentary that airs tonight? www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/05/transgender-kids-children-change-sex-families

Admittedly I have some issues with it. Is it really good to give kids hormone blockers from childhood? And I do find one of the mothers' statement problematic where she says she felt like she had a little girl because her son liked her shoes and "feminine" things and wasn't interested if you put a truck in front of him. I find these ideas of gender really reductive. A child who is uninterested in traditional masculine or feminine toys etc may not necessarily be transgender, they could be an effeminate boy or a butch girl. Why pump them full of hormones when they are very little?

Any thoughts?

It's just simply bizarre to call someone weird and creepy because they don't want to have sex with someone with a penis. Why is that sort of comment not bigoted?

empress - can't see anything about "needing to allow female penises to penetrate you lest you want to be called a bigot" in there. Just the observation that it's pretty rude to be intrusive to enquire about people's genitals. Can't really see what's wrong with that point of view?

Stavvers has never claimed anywhere that you must sleep with anyone you don't want to. Regardless of their genitals. She's very much in favour of consent.

A lesbian is no more obliged to sleep with a trans woman she doesn't fancy than she is to sleep with a cis woman she doesn't fancy. Or anyone else she doesn't fancy. Not terribly controversial, surely.

Not long ago a young transgirl in the US killed herself citing her parents' rejection of her trans status and their attempts to make her accept being a boy as reasons on her tumbler suicide note. Her parents had taken it down and prominent anti trans feminists spoke out against the publication of the note in faux concern for other trans teenagers.Her name was Leela, I think. I was quite baffled how keen people were to sweep her death under the carpet.

When I read here how people think it's wrong that people embrace their kids and help them growing up in the gender they feel they are I think they should also be aware that conversion therapy and denying their children's indentity is a driving factor for suicides.

I hadn't heard of "Stavvers" until I recently saw a reference to her on here. She is also Zoe Stavri (I think- aplogies to Zoe Stavri if I've got it wrong ) who writes for The Independent.

"I instinctively distrust anyone who professes a dislike for a certain type of genitals: it usually means they’re either cissexist, or completely lack imagination in bed, or both of those things."

If you don't want to have sex with a woman with a penis, you are cissexist. Or unimaginative. It's all about consent, is it? Unless exercising that right to consent means not consenting to sex with a certain set of genitals.

alex I don't subscribe to WSJ but I could read it. I'll post some quotes later.

widow what makes you think yhe concern expressed about the way TAs dealt with this teen's suicide was faux?

And widow maybe if these parents and others accepted their children as they are instead of encouraging their kids that liking sparkly dresses means they are girls, they would face a lifetime of medical intervention to fit themselves into made up categorizations of what is acceptable behaviour for a person with their body.

flora I found it surprising how keen they were to suppress any information of why Leela killed herself and have never seen the same demands to not report about suicides of women. And yes, I'm fully aware of responsible reporting guidelines, and contagion, but this was in other suicides (of non trans women) never highlighted as urgently if at all.

Stavvers and her ilk believe that the concept of sexual dimorphism (the fact that the human species has two distinct biological sexes) is essentialist and incorrect. She thinks that a penis can be a women's sexual organ just as much as a vagina can and vice versa.
They believe that gender is innate (essentialism) but that biological sex is not. Despite the fact that there is endless evidence that biological sex is determined by a set of signifiers and the total lack of evidence that gender is anything other than a social construct.

Whatever.

widow what suicides of women have you seen feminists publicising contrary to guidelines on contagion etc?

I find it a bit disturbing that to accept your child as you are you don't just accept them and help them accept themselves, you've got to block puberty (potentially rendering them sterile) and encourage them into a persona. What's wrong with acceptance being just dress how you want, wear your hair how you want, change your name to what you like, do activities you enjoy and give yourself a few years before making any modifications that need serious consideration? Like, if my daughter was distressed about the size of her breasts my aim would be to help her accept her body as it is rather than encouraging breast implants in a teenager. If she still wanted them as an adult that'd be her right but I wouldn't take a teen and support them in the unquestioned belief that their body is wrong by some artificial standard.

Also, it may well be that having sex with people based on their having the genitals you prefer makes you boring. But everyone is entitled to be boring if they want.

Flora - for example this thread can't remember anyone publicly warning about reporting her suicide or the reasons?

Cathy Brennan and Sarah Ditum both posted articles / comments discouraging discussion.

m.facebook.com/iambugbrennan/posts/632097490235536

www.newstatesman.com/sarah-ditum/2015/01/if-you-believe-trans-lives-matter-dont-share-leelah-alcorns-suicide-note-social

And the post I replied to has gone. I'll ask for mine to go too.

I thought that Sarah Ditum's article was excellent and highlighted a serious concern about reporting suicides. I work in a university and we are incredibly careful about reporting suicides that happen within our own community for very similar reasons. Reading reports of suicides can be very triggering to vulnerable individuals. I read that article as being a plea to be careful about what was reported and how it was reported, not discouraging discussion per sey. The other link is to someone's facebook page, so just personal commentary surely?

I do think that there is a big difference between saying someone's sexual preferences are boring and implying that they are ethically wrong by giving them an 'ism'. I am only interested in men, and my preference for bear types (big and bearded) means that I wouldn't ever be sexually interested in someone who was born a woman. I don't think that is either boring or any type of sexist, it's just what floats my particular boat. My dd fancies people with an androgynous look does that make her more interesting/less prejudiced? Who we fancy probably does have societal/cultural factors, but for each individual I think it's fairly innate, I doubt very much that I could change and become attracted to small androgynous men instead, or dd could do the same and like big hairy guys.

"how people think it's wrong that people embrace their kids and help them growing up in the gender they feel they are"

But they are not, are they? From birth the parents are pushing them into a set of stereotypical behaviours which they feel are appropriate to the biological sex - pushing them into one narrow view of gender construction. And then when the poor kids find that narrow set of behaviours revolting, they get pushed into thinking they must be a member of the opposite sx after all, because they clearly aren't right as they are.

Tbh I am beginning to think of transgender kids as more victims of emotional abuse, the parallels are striking to me.

Nooka is right too, the period of puberty and adolescence can be terrifying enough, I wouldhave thought - I did think - particularly for girls who suddenly find out that so many men consider them prey. Yet oddly the transgender debate only gets so heated when talking about men who want to cross gender to being women. Bringing their socialised sense of entitlement with them.

I think the whole concept of having 'the wrong body' is nonsense. For it to be true, then we have to believe that people exist as 'souls' or 'spirits' and are deposited into our bodies, just as vessels. So TG people just got given the wrong vehicle for their male/female soul to inhabit earth in?

Rubbish

The very thing, and the only thing which defines us as male or female is our body and the associated biology and lived experiences

The very thing, and the only thing which defines us as male or female is our body and the associated biology and lived experiences

Yes! Exactly.

Its language...humans invented language and the word 'female' to describe those humans who menstrate/get pregnant/give birth/lactate

I think TG people talk about female 'gender'. And that's where the logo falls apart; as gender is a social construct AND, if they are only talking about femininity/gender, then why the desire to be legally recognised as female sex or have sex changes?

I felt the little boy 'Cole' was trying to please both his parents by being a 'boy' for dad and a 'girl' for mum. It seemed to be a way fur him to make sense if his family situation .

I thought the five year old boy was constructing a male identity fir himself that was unconventional - lady GaGa. Dressing up, twirling, singing. I thought that perhaps it was easier fir the parents to think of their child as inhabiting the 'wrong' body and 'fixing' him to confirm to social norms rather than facing the fact that their little boy was an individual not conforming to gender norms and therefore needed their support with that.

The teenager ... Ach I don't know. Still too young for these drastic decisions I think. I don't think many 14 year olds are comfortable in their own skin. But if becoming a transwoman helps then who am I to judge?

Logic not logo

Except Cole he told Louis when he was alone with Louie in his mother's house his preference was likely to be Cole.

I found this article when looking for something else entirely. I assume many of you disagree with the quote below.

m.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/11/a-boys-life/307059/

"Today, the notion that gender is purely a social construction seems nearly as outmoded as bra-burning or free love. Feminist theory is pivoting with the rest of the culture, and is locating the key to identity in genetics and the workings of the brain. In the new conventional wisdom, we are all pre-wired for many things previously thought to be in the realm of upbringing, choice, or subjective experience: happiness, religious awakening, cheating, a love of chocolate"

Its the nature v nature 'debate' isn't it? Which has gone on forever, and will never end

However that has nothing to do with the fact that 'female' and 'woman' are terms used to describe a person that can bear children, has a uterus etc

Funny how the "new conventional thinking" is just like the old conventional thinking.