Transgender kids article in today's Guardian

[TerraNovice]

Did anyone see this article about Louis Theroux's documentary that airs tonight? www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/05/transgender-kids-children-change-sex-families

Admittedly I have some issues with it. Is it really good to give kids hormone blockers from childhood? And I do find one of the mothers' statement problematic where she says she felt like she had a little girl because her son liked her shoes and "feminine" things and wasn't interested if you put a truck in front of him. I find these ideas of gender really reductive. A child who is uninterested in traditional masculine or feminine toys etc may not necessarily be transgender, they could be an effeminate boy or a butch girl. Why pump them full of hormones when they are very little?

Any thoughts?

almond it equates to the same thing though

Because it has been decided that toilets for example, are segregated on gender lines, whereas they were segregated on the biological sex definition of 'female'

And whilst we may be allowed to be a distinct group of female sexed people, we are unable to hold conferences which exclude female gendered people, because that would be discrimitory

I do not think it does equate to the same thing at all.

If people fully replaced sex categories with gender, it would be really, really bad for women. This hasn't happened. Yet.

I think we should be aware of what has happened, and what some biophobe activists would like to happen, but at the moment, most of what they want to remove from women hasn't been removed.

What would they like to remove, that hasn't happened yet?

I'm struggling to think of anything, that isn't covered by the Equalities Act.

They have access to all women's spaces and services. And the ability to shut down any women's event/space etc, if they are excluded from it

Statistics are skewed by their right to identify as women.

Does UK legislation now say that whoever says they are a woman is a woman?

I just checked, and dictionaries still define "woman" as adult human female.

www.theguardian.com/careers/transgender-issues-in-the-workplace

Lots on google search

If that was a reply to me, I can't see in that link any mention of anyone now being considered a woman if they only say they are. I realise that transwomen are now using women's toilets.

StillLostAtTheStation thanks for posting that article. I found it quite hard to get past the glib 'everyone agrees that gender is hardwired, including feminists' bit, but the article as a whole was quite balanced and thought provoking.

Mostly it confirmed my previous thoughts that what sort of treatment/ approach children will get is totally dependent on the opinions of the psychiatrists they get referred to, and the strong correlation with homophobia. Some really sad stories too, the whole thing seems to be such a minefield for families and children even putting to one side completely the wider issues.

CoteDAzur, if I'm skim reading this correctly www.equalityhumanrights.com/your-rights/equal-rights/transgender/transgender-what-the-law-says If they get a full gender recognition certificate, transgender people are legally considered members of the acquired gender in all ways, except for one important caveat about 'gender specific offences'. I guess that's to allow that transgender, erm, penised people (struggling with vocab here mn, no intent to 'offend') can still rape as that's classed as a gender specific offence. At least we have that.

But you then have as Harvey says the equality act which requires that transgender people are not discrminated against inthe workplace and vocational training, which it distinguishes from education, wrt
"recruitment, transfer, training and promotion, access to work-related benefits, facilities and services, dismissal, and any other detriment."

So I don't think that covers the use of public toilets, just the workplace ones.

The equalities act also covers women of course but there is no statement about what to do in the case of conflict. In UK I guess that would be left to precedent, which essentially boils down to what the judge felt like on the day. I have no legal training whatsoever but I think that's what they call a grey area in the law. Hope that helps, cos I'm still confused.

I wonder if we have the right to ask people to show their gender recognition certificates! Obviously if you can't tell the difference between people who have and people who don't have them, that gives a carte blanche really for anyone who claims anything. Lovely little mess. Law is only ever as good as its enforcement .

Do you really want to go about harassing women who don't look feminine enough in your view and ask them to prove to you they are women? Really? I'd feel more uncomfortable to bump into someone in a public toilet who thinks that's OK than I could ever feel bothered by a trans woman going to a toilet designated for the gender she presents as.

It's a myth that women are harassing "women" who don't look feminine enough. Many transwomen don't pass at all and most transwomen still have a penis. The recent situation in the US gym where the woman was barred for commenting on an obvious man who described himself on social media as a "male slut" in the women's changing room to hang up a bag.

Thanks for that explanation, Gibbering. I asked about the situation in the UK because in France, people need to have undergone an "irreversible sex change operation" in order to have a paper saying they are of a different sex than the one they were born with. See here if you read French.

That means a big hairy man with a functional penis between his legs who thinks he is a woman does not get the state's approval of what is so far only in his head and waltz into women's areas. By the time a transwoman is allowed into these areas, she is as much (and arguably even more) in danger from men as women.

Widow, relax, that was intended as light-hearted. I have no intention of harassing anyone (who doesn't harass me first). Should have added a smiley face, sorry.

Cote, this is the law on the recognition certs www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/1 It looks like penised people can apply for one.

"Living in the other gender" is enough to be formally and legally recognised as being that other gender? That sounds nuts.

It also sounds like they are saying that a woman is anyone who acts like a woman. I can only guess that they they are referring to putting on a dress and make-up every day and hiding the Adam's apple with a scarf.

Yep. That's about the face of it. Crazy.

Yes. Total gender essentialism. It's like 2nd wave feminism never happened.

So... DD (9) who measures 144 cm is a woman if she stuffs a bra with some cotton, puts on some heels and make-up? If not, why not?

Better yet - I put on a tiger costume and growl for a couple of months and now I am a tiger?

Who beyond the age of 3 believes that there is no difference between looking & acting like something and being that something?

interesting guest blog post today

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_posts/2350412-Guest-post-My-little-boy-is-a-gorgeous-sparkling-Lady-Gaga-and-he-already-feels-judged

I want to ask how is gender dysphoria different to species dysphoria? If a person truly believes they are a horse trapped in a human body should they be legally treated as a horse? surely both are pyschological disorders that need to be addressed by treatment, or allowed as expressions of cultural diversity, not "fixed" by legislation proclaiming that one type of animal is actually another type?

I suspect that in a few decades time the current practices of addressing gender dysphoria will be seen as at best misguided and at worst barbaric.

I think the example of Iran is interesting. The reason there are so many sex changes in Iran is, presumably, because homosexuality is punished by death. Those who are attracted to the same sex as themselves are therefore encouraged into having surgery in order to be able to act on their sexual preferences. I do not think this is the road we should be heading down WRT "transgender" children!

To clarify: obviously I don't think parents are consciously identifying gay children and pushing them into some kind of more-acceptable transexuality in the US/UK. But I do fear that by using non-conformity to gender stereotypes as a yardstick for assessing gender dysphoria we risk pushing gay and straight children who don't happen to identify with these stereotypes into conceptualising themselves as transexual.

Avery interesting topic and some equally interesting views.

My only concern regarding the children, is whether or not they can truly say that have been born into the wrong body at such a young age. I fully accept that doctors and specialist psychiatrists are there to help, and that any drugs prescribed to them are to help down-the-line with any transition, but I can only speak from my own experience.

I am a happily married crossdresser who, as a child in the '60s / '70s, used to love dressing in my sisters clothes and pretending to be a girl. My mother used to go a long with it, but my ex-military father was horrified. I loved it. Although I couldn't dress like this all the time, I wished that I could and my father was always telling me to "harden-up" and not to be a "poof".

Having read the article, I'm wondering whether this would be different if I had been a child today. The world is far more enlightened and maybe my love of dresses and playing with my sisters friends would now be accepted. Indeed, I might have been considered trans-gender.

My point is though, by the time I reached puberty, although I still loved wearing dresses I was perfectly happy as a boy. I had girlfriends and did everything that boys do. Yes, I had another "side", but not one that needed any gender re-assignment. Today, I have a happy and loving family, and "Rachel" has a fun and happy life too.

I'm just a little concerned that these youngsters are making / having decisions made for them a little too soon.

That really worries me too, Rachel. I don't see any reason for anyone not to cross dress (actually, I don't accept men's clothes:women's clothes anyway) if they enjoy it. But the actions taken by these parents seem to me to be most extreme and premature.

Why not let people just do what they want without such drastic action?

It bothers me too. I'm a lesbian and have no desire whatsoever to be a straight transman. I used to know quite a few camp drag queens and never got the impression that any of them wanted to become female. All this is worrying.