Transgender kids article in today's Guardian

[TerraNovice]

Did anyone see this article about Louis Theroux's documentary that airs tonight? www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/05/transgender-kids-children-change-sex-families

Admittedly I have some issues with it. Is it really good to give kids hormone blockers from childhood? And I do find one of the mothers' statement problematic where she says she felt like she had a little girl because her son liked her shoes and "feminine" things and wasn't interested if you put a truck in front of him. I find these ideas of gender really reductive. A child who is uninterested in traditional masculine or feminine toys etc may not necessarily be transgender, they could be an effeminate boy or a butch girl. Why pump them full of hormones when they are very little?

Any thoughts?

That is not what I said. Actually I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

If you are trying to say I said the experience I referred to was wrong (I think that's what you were getting at) I didn't say that. What I said is it bears no resemblance to my experience of being a woman

It is a good thing that's not your experience of being a woman, Still! That is as it should be! But please don't blame the experiences of others on their negativity. It's very close to victim blaming which rightly you speak out strongly against.

Your irritation is very clear. But you do continue to read and respond to these people you find so irritating so you must find some use in it.

Still, some things have improved, generally, for women compared to when you were 20 - outlawing of marital rape, better maternity leave etc- and some new challenges have arisen such as social media, internet access to porn, increased division of toys and activities into "boys and girls" (Lego friends etc) the trans gender question etc.

On the whole, the forums are discussing problems rather than glorifying successes, although both happen. That's the nature of forums.

Just because something wasn't a problem when you were at school, or indeed when I was at school, doesn't mean the wheel hasn't turned for today's kids.

And Yy to Chopper's post.

Yy to everything 2rebecca just said.

Re Rebecca's post yes and no. From being an issue I barely thought of beyond , well if it makes someone happy what has it to do with me, I seem to be reading a lot about it.

On the question of surgery for adults it really is no one else's business.

Had my son told me at 5 he was a girl I suspect I would not have taken it seriously. I would not have stopped him wearing what he wanted (although the gendered school uniform would have been an issue )

If he'd told me at 16 I would have taken it seriously.

So many of them don't seem to be happy though and I do worry that all the language involved "sex change" "gender reassignement" makes it sound more straight forward and effective than the rather crude and often unconvincing effects that require life long faffing.
I also think there is an idealised idea of what being the other sex involves as well rather than a practical "what do you want to do as a woman that you can't do as a man? For me as a woman it's hard to think of much I could do as a man that I can't as a woman. OK there's peeing standing up which sounds over rated, many of the men I know sit or kneel if usung toilets as it's less messy anyway. Otherwise the clothes and activities are similar.
I can see that there's more stuff that makes you look weird if you're a man wanting to do "feminine" things but surely there's only so much sparkly stuff and crippling shoes and faffing on with make up a man can do before he gets bored with it and wants to use his brain a bit and sees through the superficiality just like many women?

if you're a man wanting to do "feminine" things but surely there's only so much sparkly stuff and crippling shoes and faffing on with make up a man can do before he gets bored with it and wants to use his brain a bit

You don't see the irony in referring to things commonly done by women as being brainless? It is actually possible to have a functioning brain and do all of those things.

I think the things that are stereotypically "girly" ie sparkly stuff, make up, high heels are superficial and don't require intelligence yes.
I don't think women are brainless but the trappings of femininity are and it's this stuff the boys wanting to be girls in the article and documentary were on about when wanting to be girls. They weren't wanting to be Marie Curie or Simone de Beauvoir.

You say "the trappings of femininity are brainless" and yet feminists wonder why so many young women don't want to be called feminists.

Well let's make it a given that mtf transgendered people are only interested in the superficial.

How does that work for ftm?. I don't want to be a man. The thought of losing my breasts, growing a beard and possibly having a penis attached is horrific.

You say yourself you don't think as a woman you are prevented from doing anything a man can; I agree.

It is very easy for a ftm transgender person to eschew anything feminine without standing out the way a mtf person will. But there must be more to it than that- otherwise a ftm person could just drop the girly stuff and job done.

"You say "the trappings of femininity are brainless" and yet feminists wonder why so many young women don't want to be called feminists. "

I.e. "Let's blame women who notice the patriarchy for the effects of the patriarchy."

"You say yourself you don't think as a woman you are prevented from doing anything a man can; I agree. "

I don't. Especially for the younger women.

What about the ability to go out for a night without getting groped and sexually harassed? What about the ability to leave relationships without the risk of having revenge porn posted on the internet? Go back a page or two and lookat that story about the schoolgirl whose conversation asking for mercy was recorded and is being used against her, and tell me young women can do everything young men can again?

Not to derail, but some people really do seem to have their eyes wide shut. I'm glad you've been sheltered but can't you see the people who haven't?

I don't understand why you think finding the pink sparkly superficial version of femininity that is sold to young girls is being unfinished. Your last paragraph makes no sense to me

Unfeminist not unfinished

Sorry, got confused about which thread I was on! That story I mentioned is in the pub. I have to say I've never understood why mtf transition is popular, I can only assume they really don't understand what it can be like. It horrifies me when other women deny it.

My statement was in the context of a girl wanting to be a boy. I don't think many women want to be men to avoid male violence. When it comes to nightclubs young men are more at risk from male violence than young women and I worry about my student son walking home late at night. The type of violence is different though and men are far less likely to end up dead in a field after a liaison with someone of the opposite sex and more likely to be stabbed or beaten by a gang

2Rebecca I did not say that. You said "the trappings of femininty" are brainless. Many, many women like the "trappings of femininty " It's insulting and patronising to dismiss their choices (which of no doubt won't be real choices in this sort of mind set)

gibbering I don't understand your comment at all- what is it mtf don't understand? The difficulties in the process of transition from mtf or simply being a woman?

2Rebecca I'm not sure what avoiding violence has to do with the decision to go ftm. Your position on mtf seems to be it's just social conditioning that makes it unacceptable for mtf to adopt the brainless trappings of femininty but if they want to do so why not go ahead without the need for surgery or hormone treatment.

It's very easy for a woman to not dress or look feminine and to adopt whatever might be the "trappings of masculinity". But clearly for many ftm that is not enough although by your analysis it should be.

I think the reason there are FAR fewer ftm transexuals is because it is easier to avoid the feminine stuff and do more traditionally masculine stuff than the other way round.
I really don't understand why any woman would feel that being surgically mutilated to resemble a man would enhance her life as it seems to have nothing to do with what she can and can't do with her life and more to do with stereotyped ideas of what being a man or being a woman is all about and body dysmorphia.
The concept of only being able to be who you are by having mutilating surgery or hormones to look different is seriously fucked up.

I think the reason there are FAR fewer ftm transexuals is because it is easier to avoid the feminine stuff and do more traditionally masculine stuff than the other way round

Which always takes me back to the basic patriarchal misogyny that women live within: the despising of men doing anything "feminine" and the way in which women doing "masculine" stuff is seen as good, liberating, progressive etc etc ad infinitum.

Homophobia seems to me to emerge in part from misogyny. Stereotypically, the cultural script goes something like: If you're a "real" man, your sexuality is focussed on dominating women. If you want to shag men/be shagged by them, then in some way you must be a woman, not a man.

Interestingly Iran, which has the highest rate of transsexualism in the world, has a slightly higher rate of FTM than MTF transsexuals

That is an interesting statistic Flora (do you have a source for it?) as it reinforces the idea that gender stereotyping might be a key factor in some situations. Why would anyone in Iran be attracted to the idea of becoming female, with all the restrictions that go with that? IF there was a strictly biological basis for all gender reassignment then wouldn't we expect the proportions to be equally MtF and FtM and expect them to be stable across national borders?

Why would anyone in Iran be attracted to the idea of becoming female, with all the restrictions that go with that?

I would ask that question of many of you on here and not just in relation to Iraq. If it's so terrible being a woman, men being the oppressors with all the power why would anyone anywhere want to be mtf ?

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1568604

Transexuals in Iran - Huffington so probably accurate - confirms Flora's post.