Does it matter that women get misgendered

[mariamin]

Women get misgendered by being called guys all the time.

53dragon, you don't know no one thinks anything of it. If I were on your team, I would just go along with it, as I do in various other situations.

53, MN is full of threads about which you could say "better things to worry about" - sage or rosemary with lamb, to pick just one..,

I don't mind it in use, but I do object a bit on the grounds that we would never have ended up with an originally female collective term evolving into an ungendered one. I like the alternatives less - girls, folks, people, peeps, they're all a bit twee. You lot is ok, everyone is ok. Team is also ok, if you are one, otherwise it's a bit cringey.

Seneca, Americanism is a pejorative surely. Perhaps there is an example of one that doesn't carry a pejorative meaning?

There was an article recently in the Herald Scotland about what should be the national anthem of Scotland. There appears to be some support for A Man's a Man for A' That. Now it's a fine song, and "man" can have a universal connotation of mankind in the song, but I was surprised that in the comments to the article, no one raised the issue that perhaps a song with more inclusive lyrics might be more appropriate.

My supervisor referred to my group as 'chaps..... Oh, and chap-ess...' I found it very, very slightly irritating, but can't put my finger on why...

Because chapess is not a word and is only ever used in the context of feminising chaps? Whereas at least "ladies, lasses, dolls" exist separately to "gentlemen, lads, guys".

Some work-groups are more friendly and informal and cooperative than others.

The little group that I work with on occasions that addresses itself as "Guys," is quite informal and very cooperative, trying to get things done in a no-fuss way. I was using "friendly" to describe a way of working that is informal and cooperative. We are not necessarily close friends.

If e ever called me "chapess" I would be tempted to punch them on the nose.

It makes it sound like an afterthought - "chaps" - the default. Oh, and then there's you, let's stick a feminine sounding ending on this very male word just to appease you.

"Americanism" is a term that was coined by an American in the 18th century. It certainly doesn't have a pejorative connotation in the US. It is just an easier way to say, "in American English . . ."

But the fear that Americans would adulterate the language is an old one. From Thomas Jefferson:

"I have been not a little disappointed, and made suspicious of my own judgment, on seeing the Edinburgh Reviews, the ablest critics of the age, set their faces against the introduction of new words into the English language; they are particularly apprehensive that the writers of the United States will adulterate it. Certainly so great growing a population, spread over such an extent of country, with such a variety of climates, of productions, of arts, must enlarge their language, to make it answer its purpose of expressing all ideas, the new as well as the old."

chapess is awful

for teh reason alex said

I think from now on I will stick to "everyone". It is genuinely genderless and inclusive, not a mutating male term that we are graciously allowed to use for women too.

just googled the lyrics for "A Man's a Man for A' That" and I think taking "man" to mean" mankind" in that is rather generous isn't it? With references to He and comparing the man to kings and knaves and so on?

It's about blokes and yes for a national anthem you would hope for something that doesn't fail to refer to 50% of the population!

Having said that most national anthems are shit so it wouldn't be any worse than any others!

Of all the terms used so far on this thread, I find "motherfuckers" to be far and away the most offensive.

Alex, I think you're right. It's the idea of being an afterthought which (somewhere in the back of my mind) bugged me.

Oh hands up though I am no poet appreciation person so if I have missed the meaning of the poem then that's fine honest! I read it to be about men though, being compared to other sorts of men etc.

Of course it doesn't have a pejorative meaning in the US. Americans should use American English. But UK English speakers (or indeed people from other cultures) taking on language elements of the globally dominant culture has a pejorative meaning.

Sorry thumbwitch
Luckily that one isnt a greeting i would actually use!!

This is interesting; it seems that "guy" is from Guy Fawkes, and its meaning has evolved through several transAtlantic crossings:

www.businessinsider.com/guy-fawkes-created-the-word-guy-2013-11

Although I wouldn't leap a mile if someone referred to me and a group either all female or mixed as 'guys', it's nonetheless true that no matter how relatively inoffensive 'guys' might sound, nobody would ever say 'oh you know, that guy we met last week... Jane'. We've been trained to think man words = people words, haven't we...

almond Are you saying then that "Americanism" always has a negative connotation in the UK?

S'all right Beyond - wouldn't have thought you did, tbh, it's just a word that gets used too much these days without any appreciation of what's being said, IMO, bit like "son of a bitch" - who you calling bitch? sort of thing.

Seneca - not always but...

the old classic "everyone" is perfectly good isn't it.

Yes, I think so too. I tend to use that in settings that are slightly more formal, for example a meeting open to a larger groups, rather than smaller meetings. So, "Good morning everyone..." has replaced "Ladies and Gentlemen" as a general address to a mixed group.

So we have, in roughly decreasing order of formality:

• Everyone
• People
• Folks
• Guys
• Team
• Gang
• You lot

all of which can be used to address mixed groups or groups of women or men.

Any more?

The negative connotation is a bit odd, though, because so many Americanisms actually have their origin in English, or sometimes Scots, words.

I think the jury is out on guys but will otherwise rubber stamp your list

Seneca I don't think the word "americanism" has a negative connotation, but can depending on context and tone of voice. If my mum says it in a sneering tone then yes it's negative. I will say it if there's something I find interesting in the difference in the way a word is used ad not mean anything negative at all, just noting an interesting difference for eg. That's my take on it anyway.