Feminist Pub XVIII, in which the Bluestocking greets the first signs of spring with a glass of something soothing

[PuffinsAreFictitious]

Just starting this one as the last is nearly full

Morning all!
Work has been dire so haven't popped in t'pub lately. Fortunately I now have a whole week off
*Hands out leftover Easter eggs and garishly coloured cocktails.

I once had a colleague who told me that he didn't understand the need for minority groups at work (eg women's group) and that maybe he would start one, because as a native of a very small village in Sweden, he was a minority.

I woud often get blue in the face trying to get him to understand, but I remmber one memorable conversation when I explained that women and people of certain cultural backgrounds were penalized at work for not being as loud or 'assertive' at work, for example their ideas not being heard in meetings, and he replied that well, if white men have the characteristics (loudness, aggression etc) needed to be a success at work then it just made sense that they would be the ones to succeed, natural selection and al that.

I kid you not.

That is the usual excuse, not sure why you'd expect surprise (sadly).

I did once ask my boss whether we wanted to recruit the loudest person or whether we wanted to recruit the best researcher.

YY, agree with that sera.

fib - oh, that is infuriating.

I was talking to a friend of mine recently, and he was saying that gender identity is pretty much fixed in early childhood, and you simply can't socialize women to have the characteristics men have. So what are those, I asked. And he reeled off how boy toddlers are already more assertive, more active, more vocal, etc. etc., while girls are more emotionally mature.

After we'd argued back and forth for a while, he started getting fed up and claimed I wasn't being respectful of his points.

So I asked him if I was being emotionally immature and, to be fair to him, he totally got where I was going.

The upshot, though, is he agrees I'm an argumentative, aggressive, vocal woman but still believes gender identity is largely fixed.

It just drives me bonkers, the way any exception to the argument is twisted to show that it's still really fine to discriminate against women.

Oh yes. That's a valid point, but... it doesn't fit with my argument, therefore, it doesn't count.

I just had to hide yet another thread due to body shaming. Im getting really fed up with the amount of it on these boards (not this one) there seems to be a hell of a lot of it just lately The comments wernt directed at me but when ppl post (and its been more than one person that so and so weight and so and so height is obese its bloody upsetting. Especially as im that weight and height but used to be 8 stone heavier. If a charity like beat ever wanted to get involved with MN for any campaigns MN would really have to get their act together on this first.

Jeanne

It always drives me nuts when people point to small children and say that because boy/girl children aged 3 act differently from one another it proves that gender identity is innate. No, it's because society is that fucking effective at socialising constraining people from the word go.

LordCopper

What did he say?

Good morning.

One more day off school. I need a holiday. I want to go out somewhere nice. Where should we go?

Hovis He conceded that there is a point in that. Not that anything much has changed. But it's a start.

helena you are right - there is a lot of language used not just by the public (and MNers) but also by govt and public health bodies that just serves to make many people feel that they shouldn't be seen in public. which certainly doesn't help public health at a population level...

it's because society is that fucking effective at socialising constraining people from the word go.

"Oh, I don't treat my babies differently to each other. My children are just like that!"

"Really, so what's that frilly dress/monster babygro she/he is wearing?"

When I started getting clothes (mainly hand me downs) for DS my criterion was "would I put a girl in it?", followed by "does it make me want to yawn?" and "is it going to make everyone say 'what a little scamp/he's so loud/look he likes trucks/cars'".
Which is a bit easier with "boy" clothes but even so I'm looking at the stash of baby clothes and going "far too much brown/blue, what was I thinking" but at least I am rarely going "I would not dress a girl in that".

The friend I got the large stash of boy hand me downs from is very into neutral colours herself, sadly, so it's 99% blue, brown, or grey but as there are So Flipping Many I can pick and choose.

I can't remember if I said but I once got an enormous flaming on another site for saying I would rather send my DCs to a non-uniform school because the girls' school shoes available send the message "thou shalt not play on wet grass or climb things".

My colleague and I think that with our new CEO it seems to have been some roll back and more male centric with all the senior women leaving two appearing to have been edged out. (The previous ceo was female). The new marketing guy has added two young women to his team which left my me and colleague perplexed, had these two been hired for their looks and ability? Or was it just their ability and irs our bias? The existing two women just wear trousers suits etc but these two are stacky heels and glam hair, and make up etc.

We have a company-staff intermediary who we can put some questions too, can anyone help us with some searching questions to help unpick this?

I had thought of asking of pay by gender by position? HR had produced general pay levels but was by position.

drspouse I just went shopping with my DSs and all they want are black clothes. But they are a bit older (primary school age). One of them had a "friend" said to him that his clothes were not nice.

DS has decided his favourite colour is orange. Except when it's green.

He went to his CM for the first time in nearly a year (since DD was placed) this morning and we talked yesterday, and this morning about the fact that he'd have his breakfast there and his milk there and that the CM knows what he likes for breakfast and his main worry was whether she'd have an orange cup for him to have his milk out of.

And I've ordered him an orange tutu because he wanted a "dress like Frozen" and upon probing it had to be orange. So I showed him a £2 orange tutu (orange princess dresses do not exist) and that apparently fits the bill. Though given that I'm not a fan of dresses in general I'm happy he was satisfied with a skirt.

Meanwhile, DD has just grown out of <a class="break-all" href="http://i.americanapparel.net/storefront/photos/fullscreen.html?l=1&i=s7d9.scene7.com/is/image/AmericanApparel/4041_black?defaultImage=/notavail&$ProductZoom$" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">this. And has far too many clothes in the next size. I can't possibly buy the next size of black vest can I? It won't even fit in the drawers.

panorama is covering suicide amongst men tonight - more info here www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32231774

Helena I agree with you completely about the body shaming that goes on on here, and out in rl. You could be as fit and healthy as you like but a bit heavier than the "healthy" bmi and people are obsessed about your weight :(
I've read a few articles over the years about studies finding that "overweight" is linked to lower mortality rates than "normal", but that's rarely reported and it comes as a surprise to me every time. I'd far rather we all just let people worry about their own health and be the weight they are comfortable with, without shaming anyone about it, and only hcps should be mentioning it if it looks like it will negatively affect somebody's health.

Children's clothes and shoes are incredibly gendered and it's really, really hard to get children to accept that clothes are just clothes and anyone can wear them when everyone else in society is telling them that girls wear pink/purple clothes with pretty shoes and boys wear brown/blue clothes with trainer style shoes. Dd2 was perfectly happy in jeans and jumpers with trainers until she started school, but having started school in "boy's" shoes with dinosaurs on, she's now wearing mary-jane style shoes with pink flowers for school (since her feet grew, I didn't buy them just because she wanted them) because ALL the other children have commented that they were boys shoes, so she won't get another pair :( They were so practical, for walking to school in the rain etc :( So next winter she'll either have to have boots (more expensive) or open top shoes (and have wet socks every day - we live in a rainy part of the country). I just wish they made "girls" shoes that are practical and sturdy like the "boys" shoes.

Actually there's quite a bit at of reporting at the moment following the publishing of a study showing that being 'overweight' and 'obese' may be protective against dementia. There was an interesting article in The Times (can't remember if Sat or Sun) on how some of the 'healthy ranges' (BMI, cholesterol) are actually pretty arbitrary.

MsDragons - girls' 'school shoes' are too often ridiculous. There are practical alternatives for out of school - outdoors shops like Mountain Warehouse are pretty good for doing exactly the same styles for kids in a range of colours (not just pink and sludge!).

We've just managed to get some practical sandals for her in red (her favourite colour) which I'm happy with for messing about in the summer. Its school shoes I can't find that are practical and sturdy.

I'm bewildered at the difficulty so many of you have in buying sturdy girls' school shoes.

My son was at a mixed fee paying school with a very strict uniform policy. In junior primary girls wore black Mary Jane shoes but upper primary and secondary girls were only allowed flat black lace-up shoes or black loafers , no court shoes, ballet pumps or patent. Basically the boys and girls were wearing the same shoes. (I used to feel sorry for the girls having to wear such ugly shoes)

Yes it is rather bewildering that manufacturers don't think that maryjanes and other styles of shoes traditionally designed for girls should be able to withstand normal wear and tear as they do for boys' shoes

I'm in Germany and noticed the other day when I was buying DS shoes that it's very different here, each brand had a few styles of shoe which were produced in various colours, pink and purple for girls and blue and green for boys, both with black or white. DS in the end after looking at a black and blue pair which lit up with police lights (!) went for a light brown pair with little lizards on them, which would have suited a boy or a girl.

There are some "pretty" party type shoes but they seem the exception here rather than the rule.

Also slightly baffled. My DDs do terrible things to their school shoes... climbing, paddling, running through mud. And they last just fine.

The problem is that the whole country is obsessed with buying Clarks, which are really rather crap.

I will agree that sturdy sandals for girls are harder to come by.

And knee-length shorts. Don't get me started on shorts for girls. What fun to only sell tiny short shorts for girls and then blame them for looking "slutty".

But, schools don't tend to have uniforms here, so there is no such thing as "school shoes" and the kinds of shoes you can buy in Britain for preschoolers seem to pervade all the way through school until the teens break into adult sizes and then of course it's whatever is in fashion.

Just start importing shoes www.deichmann.com/DE/de/shop/kinder/kinder-schuhe.cat See!

Yes Clarks have turned really crap this generation. I think we're all remembering where our parents shopped for shoes but they're nowhere near what they used to be. I used to get a choice of Geox, Clarks and Start Rite at our local independent place. The biggest brand here in Germany seems to be Superfit. They're fantastic and really really hardwearing, unisex shoe designs with different colours aimed at girls and boys.

I saw somebody on facebook the other day say they'd read that girls and boys have differently shaped feet Is that Clarks' latest great marketing con then?