The greens and prostitutes

[IceBeing]

Be gentle as I am new to thinking about this.

I found the Natalie Bennett's comments on decriminalising prostitution pretty persuasive - what am I missing?

She basically said that sex workers would like this policy (having contributed to it) and that research from other countries indicated it was the way forward.

"Having done a fair amount of travelling, I'm going to posit that the NZ model won't work in the same way in the UK, due to geographical considerations. What say the people capable of debate?"

I think that is a good point and one I have considered, myself. I assume you mean that NZ has a different immigration situation. (To be honest, I'm not 100% sure what NZ's immigration rules are. I am just assuming that there are not several impoverished countries from which people can freely immigrate.)

What a shame that what was an interesting and insightful thread, with women with actual experience of prostitution talking about their (very different) experiences and, I think, all of us engaging in a very respectful discussion where everyone was being listened to has been (yet again) taken over by one very vocal poster who just wants to say over and over again "but my evo psych is right", despite ignoring the question of why rates of prostitution use vary from one country to another (suggesting it is a social phenomenon rather than a biological one), ignoring requests for citations to back up their supposedly factual claims, and confusing "is" and "ought" (some biologists have argued that humans have an inherent tendency towards violence - that doesn't mean we all sit around saying "oh what a shame, let's rip up all the laws banning assault and murder").

Again, I find myself wondering "why is this poster so invested in defending the right of the minority of men who want to use prostitutes without interference?" Because it does come across as the men who are her/his primary concern. She/he certainly doesn't seem to be listening to the women on this thread who are/have been prostitutes.

Interesting - why geographical specifically?
Does anyone else think like me that we have a middle ground stance here atm and it would be more worthwhile to have extensive trafficking policies in place rather than tackling the two tiers of prostitution at the moment?

I'm more going from the logistical perspective. To get to NZ, you need to fly. There are no ferries, tunnel or anything else because it really is incredibly isolated.

It is so much easier to bring people into the UK who might not wish to be here. Trafficking is not unheard of in NZ, but it is much, much rarer. Not just sex trafficking, but also trafficking in domestic workers, factory workers and others who are brought to the UK on false pretences.

NZ works to similar rules as Australia with regard to immigration. A points system, stringent health checks and a lengthy and expensive process in the emigré's home country.

(apologies for slightly disjointed posting, trying to do far too many things at once, but don't want you to think I'm ignoring your interesting point of view)

"I think rather than us chewing, the problem is you're choking and are needing to resort to silly insults rather than engaging with the discussion."

I will try to stick to make believe stories whose intent is to put my opposition on the same side as a evil man who had sex with a crying girl in future rather than addressing the actual points.

It is all my fault as i keep forgetting i am dealing with some on here who have the "victim meme" and "rape culture meme" as a basic tenet of faith and tactical debate choice when discussing any issue regarding feminism.

It is why i reject gender feminism totally as its tactics may seem effective in the short term but ultimately they are self defeating as they portray women and actually rely on women being seen as not having agency over their own actions because if something goes wrong "its the patriarchy" and if something later goes right "its still the patriarchy" just in case something goes wrong again.

Sorry no, i have agency over my actions and take responsibility for them and those who prefer to use feminism's "get out of jail free" card the big P are simply creating a imaginary oppressor because they lack the courage to accept responsibility for their actions or lack of effort.

Now you are welcome to keep making insinuations about my gender or that i am from the MRA as some sort of self deception that allows you to think you represent the views of all women but i can list plenty of other women who share my views and many of them are very well known.

I'm not particularly au fait with the feminism boards but Mary you do seem to be very limited as a woman in what you need/want and expect from others. It sounds very fake; as if you are living in some bizarre novella from the Victorian era.

AH she's a handmaiden.
I will use that word in this instance

Lions I know that quite a lot of abolitionist campaigners argue that drawing a firm division between trafficking and prostitution is misleading, since trafficking is in fact essential to the sex industry and we can't really construct a binary between 'nice' and 'not nice' prostitution. I don't know much about this so I don't want to be too bold, but there was a feminist current podcast where this was discussed - feministcurrent.com/8620/podcast-a-leaked-document-shows-amnesty-international-supports-the-legalization-of-prostitution-canada-strikes-down-their-current-laws/

And mary thanks for admitting you're anti-feminist (or gender feminist, whatever that is). Now we're all clear. Why are you on a feminist discussion forum, exactly? Did you think you were going to persuade us all that feminism is actually evil, or were you just trying to pick a fight? No one wants to fight with you, so it might be time to drop it.

Thank you Rosie i'll listen to that as soon as I can get dd to sleep! Back later.

"I'm not particularly au fait with the feminism boards but Mary you do seem to be very limited as a woman in what you need/want and expect from others. It sounds very fake; as if you are living in some bizarre novella from the Victorian era."

Other than it being mentioned while i was growing up it was never a topic of interest as i simply got on with my life, perhaps only now really getting into discussions about it and getting my material from the web they may seem a bit polarized to others who have been involved for years.

However my comments about finding those who play the victim or rape meme in a discussion to avoid answering valid points is one i have seen a lot of and challenge it whenever i see it.

I have a sense I'm not going to agree with what is 'essential' to prostitution if it isn't women who have the option of our welfare state and are more of the Happy Hooker variety, but looking forward to finding out more.

I just wonder if you say the same thing to black people who might bemoan the fact they are the highest proportion of inmates in prisons, for example?
I'm just curious but I don't really have time to get into a debate as I need to put dd to bed.

Re trafficking it is essential to punters because it means there is a significant number of prostitutes who are not able to vet and approve/decline punters. As Kim points out above.

And mary thanks for admitting you're anti-feminist (or gender feminist, whatever that is). Now we're all clear. Why are you on a feminist discussion forum, exactly? Did you think you were going to persuade us all that feminism is actually evil, or were you just trying to pick a fight? No one wants to fight with you, so it might be time to drop it.

rivetingrosie i am not a anti-feminist i am a equity-feminist.

Lets call your assertion that its gender feminism or anti-feminism the second thing you have in common with conservatives (along with controlling sex via banning prostitution) and conservative men especially as they are big on "purity policing" within their ideology as well.

And no i have no interest in doing anything but posting my opinion on the matters being discussed, while you and a few others here seem to have no problem attacking me personally for disagreeing with you or pointing out your faulty methodology.

Expect it hurled back at you everytime you do.

Oh yeah that's a good point petula (though grim!) I hadn't thought of it that way before.

And mary I'm not going to engage with you if you're going to be so aggressive. Mn feminist forum is really valuable and unusual because that sort of behaviour is not tolerated here, as it is on other sites. Please be more respectful. I was happy to discuss with you earlier in the thread because you seemed to be prepared to discuss and learn, but you seem to be set on being antagonistic now.

Mary, if men have this "drive" that you talk about, would you also argue that it's okay for a man whose partner doesn't want/can't have sex (if she's just had a baby, for example) to go and fuck someone else, because he's made to need sex?

Absolutely Petula.

And riveting.... not engaging is almost certainly the best possible position to take.

feministcurrent.com/8620/podcast-a-leaked-document-shows-amnesty-international-supports-the-legalization-of-prostitution-canada-strikes-down-their-current-laws/

Just look at the language in it AGAIN feminism saying women have no agency over their decisions or bodies:

"Men’s “right to buy sex?”

rather than

"Womens right to sell sex".

And this victim language:

Bridget Perrier, "a prostitution survivor".

Is prostitution somehow lethal now because nobody told me?

I nearly flattened a asshole about 6 months ago for calling me a "rape survivor" as if what happened when i was younger was some sort of plane crash or something although on balance it was preferable to getting told "and you think you did not deserve it?" by my GP when i told him the fucking prick.

I thought i could find some strong women on here to talk to so if there are any that will not peddle me this victim-hood shite let me know and if not im done here.

lion, what do you think of prostitution were the women involved don't really want to be prostitutes, don't enjoy it or feel it makes them happy, but make more money than they would living on welfare and so choose to do it?

I'm not sure I know where I stand on it tbh, but it does seem to involve an active sort of 'consent', much more like why most people go to work every day.

"Is prostitution somehow lethal now because nobody told me?"

Upthread a poster discussed how most of the prostituted women in a group she knew of were dead five years later. It is a dangerous line of work.

I am sorry you were raped and that your doctor was unsupportive.

Women who had or were in prostitution had a mortality rate (meaning death rate) 200 times that of women of similar age and race.

100 women died during the length of the study, average age 34. Cause of death: 19% homicide, 18% drug ingestion, 12% accidents, 9% alcohol-related causes, and 8% HIV/AIDS.

The women had a mortality rate 391 per 100,000 compared to the general population, standardized mortality ratio, adjusted for age and race, of 1.9 per 100,000.

The active prostitutes had a mortality rate of 459 per 100,000 compared to the standardized rate of 5.9 per 100,000.

Active prostitutes were almost 18 times more likely to be murdered than women of similar age and race during the study interval.

The extrapolated workplace homicide rate for prostitutes in this study was 204 per 100,000, compared to 4 per 100,000 for female liquor store workers and 29 per 100,000 for male taxicab drivers.

John J. Potterat, Devon D. Brewer, Stephen Q. Muth1, Richard B. Rothenberg3, Donald E. Woodhouse, John B. Muth, Heather K. Stite1, and Stuart Brody, “Mortality in a Long-term Open Cohort of Prostitute Women,” Am J Epidemiol 159:778–785, 2004.

Seems pretty fucking lethal to me.