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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

The greens and prostitutes

807 replies

IceBeing · 04/03/2015 21:21

Be gentle as I am new to thinking about this.

I found the Natalie Bennett's comments on decriminalising prostitution pretty persuasive - what am I missing?

She basically said that sex workers would like this policy (having contributed to it) and that research from other countries indicated it was the way forward.

OP posts:
PuffinsAreFictitious · 09/03/2015 20:15

And that was just the women they studied.... honestly, it's possible to be so open minded that your brain falls out.

mary24go · 09/03/2015 20:20

"Mary, if men have this "drive" that you talk about, would you also argue that it's okay for a man whose partner doesn't want/can't have sex (if she's just had a baby, for example) to go and fuck someone else, because he's made to need sex?"

Actually that is a better question than you realize and it cuts both ways.

Over such a short term i would not but its up to the woman as a individual to choose.

If it was over a long term due to her having a medical condition then i suppose it would be a decision for the couple to decide upon.

As far as the reverse is concerned i seem to recall several instances where a guy through injury or some other reason lost the ability to have sex and was ok with his wife having sex outside the marriage.

What if he has erectile dysfunction that cannot be cured is his willingness to let his wife have sex with another man to fulfill her sex drive not a act of devotion for the woman he loves and can no longer satisfy sexually?

Step back from your perception of it being all about this "animalistic man" that you have decided to create and a poor innocent woman and see it as a issue for both men and women regardless of the situation.

scallopsrgreat · 09/03/2015 20:22

But Puffins, maybe they just weren't strong enough women Hmm.

Those figures are terrifying and shocking. I've seen them before but they never cease to affect me like that Sad.

scallopsrgreat · 09/03/2015 20:27

You are the one creating an 'animalistic man' mary.

And I'm so glad you think its up to the woman to choose whether she wants to have sex or not after having a baby. Even if it is for such a short period of time. In my house I get to choose every time I want to have sex, as does my partner. Weird, I know.

PuffinsAreFictitious · 09/03/2015 20:28

Yes, like all those women who have managed to get out of prostitution and now suffer from rampant PTSD... just not strong enough.

Or the women who now suffer from long term anxiety and depression due to their being raped.... lack of resilience.

And those figures are bloody shocking. People should be shocked. It's reality for the vast majority of prostituted women.

mary24go · 09/03/2015 20:40

Those figures are terrifying and shocking. I've seen them before but they never cease to affect me like that.

It mixes illegal and legal workers and ignores that the numbers for there are substantial differences in rates of victimization between street prostitutes and indoor sex workers who work as call girls, or in brothels and massage parlors. Women who work legally in licensed brothels are much less likely to be victimized as are indoor workers in countries where sex work is legal.

204 per 100k is near the murder rate of some of the worst countries on earth though and a example of why it needs to be controlled and policed because it has never been stopped no matter how illegal it has been made, it just goes deeper and darker just like banning abortion would do.

scallopsrgreat · 09/03/2015 20:42

Or maybe we should look at the root of the problem? Male violence and male entitlement?

PuffinsAreFictitious · 09/03/2015 20:46

Don't be silly Scallops... that would mean naming the problem, and we can't do that, because men have neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeddddddddddssssssssssssss.

And evo-psych is a pile of arse.

Lioninthesun · 09/03/2015 20:49

And it's all so easy to blame the victim. Mainly because they usually haven't got a voice.

lion, what do you think of prostitution were the women involved don't really want to be prostitutes, don't enjoy it or feel it makes them happy, but make more money than they would living on welfare and so choose to do it?
Hmm, I think that as long as there is a viable option for life (or access to cash for the basics - welfare or the Green's Living Wage) and you can see the prostitutes money on top as a means for luxury (or possibly addiction) then there is more choice in that situation (and probably support from various outreach programmes) than the trafficked girl who is probably hidden away, doesn't know the language, is unsure if she will be arrested, has no where else to turn to and possibly drugged and held against her will.

Off to listen to that podcast now Smile

mary24go · 09/03/2015 20:51

"And I'm so glad you think its up to the woman to choose whether she wants to have sex or not after having a baby. Even if it is for such a short period of time. In my house I get to choose every time I want to have sex, as does my partner. Weird, I know."

I created nothing i simply pointed out some simple biological facts that you and others created a literal strawman out of, if you cannot discus the sexual desires and needs of both genders without doing that then with all due respect you need to grow up.

I meant it was up to her if she was ok with him getting sex elsewhere for the duration.

But i see you decided to skip m,y other point entirely...

Do not misunderstand me it cuts both ways and as it is entirely possible that in a relationship either party could be out of commission for a period of time these things need to be addressed if you are going to start screwing around with a social engineering project relating to sex and its availability.

If your husband wanted to have sex more often than you did and mentioned it would you have sex with him when you were not interested in it or would you say tough shit pal i am not in the mood, what if the reverse is true or he has a injury?

PuffinsAreFictitious · 09/03/2015 20:56

I thought you were leaving if we didn't start agreeing with you?

None of us do, and yet, you haven't gone. I'm terribly disappointed.

scallopsrgreat · 09/03/2015 20:58

I hadn't realised that you meant the woman's choice was whether her partner had sex with someone else.

But you think it's reasonable for a woman to make a choice whether her partner is allowed to play away for a few weeks while she recovers from giving birth? You think it's reasonable that a partner would ask that of a woman who's just given birth? Shock

You really don't have a high opinion of men do you?

And no I don't have sex with my partner if I'm not up for it. Of course I don't. More importantly they don't expect me to.

Amethyst24 · 09/03/2015 20:59

The difference, Mary, is that an entire industry hadn't been build around women's "needs", in which millions of men are exploited.

If I asked the question on the relationships board, "My partner has terrible ED and can never have sex, what about my needs?" the response I guarantee I'd get is, "You'll have to put up with it if you want to stay with him, otherwise call it a day and find someone else."

ShirakawaKaede · 09/03/2015 21:01

Just de-lurking to lol@ this "literal" straw man that has apparently been made. Where is it? I can't see it...

mary24go · 09/03/2015 21:04

"Or maybe we should look at the root of the problem? Male violence and male entitlement?"

Yea lets cos even if some of those women were iled by other women over a dispute its all cos of the "patriarchy" right, so not really there fault.....

Maybe if we got the women to take up deep sea fishing as the death rate is only about 123 per 100k for a median salary of $25,590 a year.

I wonder how that compares to the death rate in legal brothels.

Did this study mention deaths i could not find it:

feministcurrent.com/7038/new-research-shows-violence-decreases-under-nordic-model-why-the-radio-silence/

Lioninthesun · 09/03/2015 21:07

Loving the idea of Mary's that women have the 'sexual power' when Kim has already confirmed that most of her punters have free sex at home and yet still choose to spend their family income on more sex.

scallopsrgreat · 09/03/2015 21:11

Are you saying male violence isn't the problem, mary? Just because a couple of prostitutes are killed by women (if they are) it doesn't change the overall pattern. 99% of sexual violence is committed by men. 96% of murders at committed by men.

But yes let's not name the problem. Let's hide it by pointing out the odd exception. Then we won't actually have to do anything about it and the industry built on mens wants at the expense of women (as Amethyst rightly pointed out), can continue unabated.

Jessica147 · 09/03/2015 21:11

lion, I think it's tied up with mary's idea that men 'earn' sex from their partners. Women as the gatekeepers of sex, even in loving relationships. Not a very healthy view of relationships IMO.

FloraFox · 09/03/2015 21:13

I'm not sure I've never heard a woman make an argument that women have all the power. That's a PUA / beta male line, isn't it? Even more amazed at the concept of "equity-feminism" which seems to consist of calling out women who discuss their lived experience and try to analyse the structural factors that affect their lives. It sounds so far removed from feminism that it's certainly not "within my ideology" so for as "purity policing" might be concerned.

mary24go · 09/03/2015 21:13

"But you think it's reasonable for a woman to make a choice whether her partner is allowed to play away for a few weeks while she recovers from giving birth? You think it's reasonable that a partner would ask that of a woman who's just given birth?"

Again you with the control issues.

IT IS NOT MY PLACE TO TELL A COUPLE WHAT THEY CAN OR CANNOT DO, WHAT IS REASONABLE OR UNREASONABLE OR LIMIT THEIR CHOICES.

"And no I don't have sex with my partner if I'm not up for it. Of course I don't. More importantly they don't expect me to."

So he has to do without and not complain about it or suggest a alternative.

As i said clear cut control issues and ending or severely limiting the availability of prostitution is just another way of gaining more control.

ShirakawaKaede · 09/03/2015 21:16

Tbh, I think we will get nowhere attempting to engage with someone who doesn't even recognise male entitlement & violence as significant to these issues. I don't think we should allow Mary to further derail the thread.

mary24go · 09/03/2015 21:16

Loving the idea of Mary's that women have the 'sexual power' when Kim has already confirmed that most of her punters have free sex at home and yet still choose to spend their family income on more sex.

WRONG as confirmed by scallopsrgreat who has even trained him to not complain or suggest alternatives...to quote:

"And no I don't have sex with my partner if I'm not up for it. Of course I don't. More importantly they don't expect me to."

LurcioAgain · 09/03/2015 21:17

Do stop shouting. We're not (virtually) deaf. We merely thinking your views are asinine.

You really have a spectacularly low opinion of men, and spectacularly low standards for what counts as decent behaviour within a relationship.

StillLostAtTheStation · 09/03/2015 21:18

Mary, oddly I understand where you're coming from saying that patriarchy can't be blamed for everything. I also agree that there are elements of feminist discussion which do come across as women can't be blamed for anything they do/ everything is stacked against us women, with which I don't agree and find quite off-putting.

However on this topic, some things are just plain wrong because they are wrong and prostitution is one of them.

LurcioAgain · 09/03/2015 21:19

Shira - you're right of course (I cross posted). My apologies. Will engage the imaginary "hide poster" button.