The greens and prostitutes

[IceBeing]

Be gentle as I am new to thinking about this.

I found the Natalie Bennett's comments on decriminalising prostitution pretty persuasive - what am I missing?

She basically said that sex workers would like this policy (having contributed to it) and that research from other countries indicated it was the way forward.

Gosh I should say that I am totally against prostitution for either men or women. I totally agree that consent cannot sit along side monetary transactions in a sane way and the end point of any policy around prostitution should be that it is eradicated....preferably by making a society in which men (and women) would find it inconceivable to pay for sex.

I have heard it said by intelligent people that sweatshops are better than no sweatshops in some areas of the world. Because at least people can generate SOME income, and places that have no welfare options at all.

I would not apply that to prostitution because of the huge and permanent damage to individuals involved.

The only possible reason in which I would accept any thing, and I would accept anything - even if it cause a short lived increase in prostitution, would be on an evidence based policy that would lead to faster, safer elimination of prostitution.

Having read some links here it looks like decriminilization of prostitution could be expected to lead to less severe violence, but more sex working over all.

The questions is, will it be easier to shut down the whole idea of prostitution having brought it into a legal regulated framework than without?

Again, with reference to illegal drugs, cracking down doesn't seem to reduce drug use - there is evidence that legalizing can, in the long run, reduce use.

I think there are a lot of pros and cons that people on both sides seem to ignore. My biggest issue with all the claims is the nordic model will not stop prostitution and I have read that the police cannot make sure claims about any decrease simply because it is underground and no one actually knows what goes on. And this whole business in Sweden where the claims are the women are not prosecuted is a bit off as from the various articles available on line of what has happened is a lot of women are charged with other crimes so that women will not report rapes if they are by a client for fear of arrest or deportation if they come from abroad. So topline figures may look better but I do wonder how accurate they are.

On the other side women will still be tricked into working even when legal options are available. So long as there is money to be made there will always be those who want to abuse the system and they will operate whichever model is in place.

How DO we go about achieving a society in which it is inconceivable to pay for sex?

Clearly it would help to stop portraying and praising girls for submissive meek behaviour and stop portraying and praising boys for dominating, aggressive behaviour.

DH has been watching something about advertising. Apparently if you find an advertisment with both a girl and a boy in the picture the boy will almost always be taller, posed domineeringly and the girl shorter and looking self effacing.....

It makes me feel so depressed to hear this kind of thing!

I thought I'd post in here so that I can place mark. For me this is the one reason I'd not vote Green. Which leaves me in a position of possibly not voting at all for the first time in my life.

I want a party that actually considers women, which the Greens seem to be trying to do, but they appear not to be very in tune with current studies on the matter and general common sense. I also think it is well intentioned, but possibly stuck in the 90's when this idea was 'cool'. Now it smacks of being the chick who is cool with the way men do things, 'coz she's not a prude, innit. Or some weird hippy idea of free 'love'. Not sure which is worse!

Hope that makes sense (lost for vocab today)

These two issues are bothering me too (prostitution and the gaffs of their equalities spokesperson). I too don't know enough yet about either the Nordic or New Zealand models, so this thread is really helpful. I do find I am generally swayed by the often convincing arguments put forward by feminists on MN on matters I have not yet fully considered.

I think the Green's remaining grace for me, with the prostitution issue particularly, is that their policies are formed democratically within the party. So if this is a key issue that might prevent someone from otherwise voting green, then perhaps there's some merit to joining the party as a member (doesn't mean you have to vote for them!) so that you can influence policy change on this.

The gaffs by the equalities spokesperson I agree, is a concern, although reassuring to hear Natalie's stance as leader. I do hope though, that with the extra funding coming from membership surge, this will help the party firm up and maintain their standards throughout. They do seem to be a party willing to listen and make changes accordingly. I have never been unimpressed with Caroline Lucus and wish there were more like her and Natalie Bennet throughout the party!

I've just cancelledmy membership of the scottish greens over this issue. I can't support a party that proposes decriminalising violence against women. I also watched a prostitution survivor get bullied and silenced in their women's facebook group by a gang of liberal 'feminists' who were all about choosey choosey choice and 'Sex is just work' patter.

This is probably a completely stupid naive question, but if prostitution is legalised is it also legitimised? Are we going to reach a position whereby sex work positions are advertised and men/women on benefits are required to apply for them as they would be any other job? Or does it just move sex work into a grey area inside of the law where prostitutes are safe from prosecution (good) as are pimps, brothel owners and punters (not so good)?

Me too. This is opening my eyes a little, I didn't know much about the prostitution issue. I was also pleased that Natalie herself unequivocally stated that she disliked the term 'terf', but a bit that they still have an equality spokesperson using such terms while the man coming from the other side of transgender was forced into an apology. Will watch that space...

I will still be voting green in May if I can, because they are the only party seriously considering the environmental and associated socioeconomic problems we face. But I am hesitant to join them, which I had decided to do until those terf comments kicked off.

Yeah this has turned me against the Greens as well. This is the first election in which I'm genuinely a swing voter! (waits for army of campaigners to knock on my front door...)

Measuring violence against women in prostitution is incredibly difficult. I think it's Rachel Moran who points out (can get a citation here if anyone wants it) that this common assumption that street prostitution is more dangerous isn't always true. One of the advantages that women on the street have is that they can get a look at the john before they agree to have sex with him. They're also more likely to be in the open air and so are more able to run away. Women in brothels run by pimps and madams don't have this option - they don't get to choose ("choose" being a very heavily qualified word here) which johns they have sex with, since the pimp does this for them; they're also in a confined space, so if the man gets violent it's harder to escape.

This is such a bleak thing to discuss...

In a lot of ways, this is an empirical debate: which model decreases violence and trafficking most effectively? This is a data question which can be answered by research. All feminists agree (surely) that the priority is the safety and welfare of prostituted women.

But that's not the only issue at stake. Legalising or decriminalising prostitution sends a horrendous message to men: buying sex is morally acceptable, prostituted women are commodities, all women are potential commodities, consent can be bought, the sexual pleasure of your partner is irrelevant. This is the rape culture feminists are fighting so hard to combat, and this affects all women. Another Rachel Moran idea - all it takes to end up in prostitution is a vagina and unfortunate circumstances; all women have the first, and all women could fall prey to the second.

Yes it's so difficult when they have everything right except this threatening to turn women back into second-class humans.

I wonder if it is because the policy was formed a long time ago, as someone upthread suggested, and has never been updated. It would probably not be a good idea to update it now so close to an election - or would it? A shame, a great shame, that they did not review this last year.

I see in the greens the seeds of a new kind of politics, one which gets us off the same old tired track and into new areas, and one where community, thought, evidence and where necessary admitting mistakes play their parts. But I don't want this aspect in there!

This has been very educational reading for me.

It would not put me off voting Green though.

"In Sweden...so that women will not report rapes if they are by a client for fear of arrest or deportation if they come from abroad"

I've heard from various sources now that despite it's 'good guys and gals' moral positioning, Sweden is actually very xenophobic and unfriendly for the immigrants already there. Funny how these things come together isn't it.

I posted this on one of the amnesty threads, but I find it helps to think of it like black slaves.

When they were fighting for equal rights, did anyone say, no we can't abolish slavery because women and children will have no money.

Did any black people come forward and say, we don't want slavery abolished. We want to do this line of work, we don't want our masters prosecuted.

Did any anti racists stand up and say, we will never abolish slavery so we might as well make it 'safer' for black people to be slaves.

Doesn't that sound ludicrous?!

And that is what feminists who support prostitution and the likes of Natalie Green sound like to me.

We can't change it, so let's continue to keep and support women in their disadvantaged state.

It blows my mind that as a women, you can think this.

Kudos to black people who all collectively believed they were more worthy than the shit they were subjected to.

Question remains- Why do all the females not believe women are more worthy?

"In Sweden...women will not report rapes if they are by a client for fear of arrest or deportation if they come from abroad" "

How would legalising prostitution alter that?

The woman who has been trafficked, who is in Sweden (or the UK) illegally, who has no right to the protection of the law, who has no legal right to work in the brothel because she is an illegal immigrant, will be no more likely to report rape if prostitution were legal, than if it is illegal.

Good point Buffy (I always enjoy your points!)

I think sex work is also convenient because it's such an umbrella term. It can include pimping, stripping, manning (lol) sex lines, pornography etc. - not just being penetrated in exchange for money.

There are many sex work advocates who call themselves 'sex workers' and then refuse to elaborate. Melissa Gira Grant, for instance, is deliberately vague about her experiences as a sex worker. She certainly did webcam sex shows, but won't give any more details than that. It may be (without wishing to slander her!) that she wants to give the impression she sold full penetrative sex, but she actually didn't. I know another 'former sex worker' IRL who goes on about how empowering it was blah blah and I only found out recently that she was a dominatrix and never had sex with her clients, therefore never exposed herself to STDs, pregnancy and so on. This is not to say that these are desirable jobs necessarily, but they're clearly in a different category from the prostitution that Rachel Moran talks about.

In a lot of ways, this is an empirical debate: which model decreases violence and trafficking most effectively? This is a data question which can be answered by research.

riveting I think that is really a complicated question. There are many difficulties in getting a good representation of women in prostitution. Many of the worst affected women have no opportunity to participate in studies nor to have their voice heard. Often there are organisations involved in the research that have a political view and this might affect the women who are brought into the study and also the papers often reach conclusions that are out of the scope of the research they have undertaken.

This is one of the best pieces of research I have found on this issue. The methodology looks robust and the author acknowledges that there are other issues involved, not just trafficking. They found a strong correlation between legalisation / decriminalisation and trafficking.

www.lse.ac.uk/geographyAndEnvironment/whosWho/profiles/neumayer/pdf/Article-for-World-Development-prostitution-anonymous-REVISED.pdf

It makes sense if you think about it - the demand undoubtedly increases and women must be found to meet the demand. One factor of prostitution that is often overlooked is the impact of racism in prostitution. Men seek exotic experiences from Chinese, Asian and black women in particular. While the demand is there, it will be met.

Oh yes, absolutely agreed. I didn't mean to give the impression it was an easily answered empirical question!