The greens and prostitutes

[IceBeing]

Be gentle as I am new to thinking about this.

I found the Natalie Bennett's comments on decriminalising prostitution pretty persuasive - what am I missing?

She basically said that sex workers would like this policy (having contributed to it) and that research from other countries indicated it was the way forward.

I don't know if he's mistaken or if you heard wrong but prostitution is legal in Denmark. When the idea of the Nordic model was brought up their lawmakers were very quick in rejecting it.

"I am sure 99% of the Danish people wouldn't agree with the legalization of prostitution."

I am 99% sure he's wrong. Actually make that 99.99%.

"People who are doing this need help and if means they are arrested to enable this then I don't think that's a bad thing."

I don't think it's a good thing to arrest women selling sex who don't want to be.

I've seen an article somewhere about what goes on in other countries. Basically poorer countries have to be seen fighting sex trafficking in order to get their aid money from the US. So they raid random brothels, arrest the women working there and send them to a detention centre. Tell the US they have rescued victims. They get their money and release the women who go back to working in a brothel. Often the women protest loudly when arrested and try to escape from the police and detention centres.

Which is why I think an outright blanket ban is a bad idea. I think the best approach would be to help those who need it, and to improve relations between prostitutes and the police so they wouldn't have so much to deter them from coming forward and asking for help.

No dear, I was LOL'ing at you, and your failure to understand that these sex activists are not the people who sell sex. They may have done in the past, or said they have done - I sincerely doubt that DF and his partner have ever sold sex themselves- merely got rich on taking a % of those who do. Yet DF calls himself a sex worker - so we should all listen to him when he tells us and AI all about how 'buying sex is a human right'.

They're interested in making money, not the welfare of sex workers. If they were interested in the welfare of sex workers, they would not dismiss the likes of Melissa Farley and Rachel Moran.

"I think the best approach would be to help those who need it, and to improve relations between prostitutes and the police so they wouldn't have so much to deter them from coming forward and asking for help"

...all things that can be done without supporting punters having the right to pay to access others' bodies in law. (i don't agree with criminalising those who sell sex with themselves)

"i don't agree with criminalising those who sell sex with themselves"

If prostitution were decriminalised, those who sell sex themselves would not be criminalised at all and wouldn't need to worry about losing their children or being kicked out by their landlord or being arrested for working with another prostitute.

The Nordic model has very negative consequences for prostitutes who get exposed or who come to the attention of authorities.

If you missed the quote above by Swedish prostitute Carina Edlund, it's worth reading.

"No dear, I was LOL'ing at you, and your failure to understand that these sex activists are not the people who sell sex."

Rachel Moran doesn't currently sell sex either.

And Melissa Farley has never sold sex.

You seem desperate to sidestep what Carina Edlund has said. You are trying to use the fact she is part of a group founded by a prostitute who is no longer a prostitute to dismiss her???

you seem desperate to maintain that men should be able to pay for access to other people's bodies

OK. 1. Sex activist organisations are run by people who call themselves sex workers, but do not currently sell sex. They do that to give themsleves more weight in the debate, as in 'listen to me, I'm a sex worker' - when they are not sex workers themselves, but own escort agencies etc. That is hypocrisy.

1. Melissa Farley has never called herself a sex worker.

1. Rachel Moran calls herself a prostitution survivor.

See what I'm getting at?

Listen to the strongest voices in the debate (those who make the most money, have a high media presence) complete ignores the sex trafficking, the poverty and abuse that goes on in prostitution - and that is what the likes of DF wants - he doesn't want people to see the negative side and the damage - he wants to carry on making money by exploiting others.

I'm not really interested in what Carina Edlund says - I've read her blog before. I'm interested in stopping the demand for bought sex by men which feeds the sex traffickers. That's what the Swedish model is about - stopping the abuse and trafficking.

Carina's quote just confirms what we all know - that prostitution is dangerous and the demand for prostitutes should be tackled at it's root cause. The men that buy.

Yeah it went to vote in Denmark and people like my DH vote for legalization without really understanding what they were voting for. DH told me that he has read numerous articles in the press about women who were active prostitutes and didn't have a problem with it. When I questioned DH them being former he started to see my point that there had been a campaign by those organizing sex work because legalization worked for them.

Amen to that, Buffy.

fayyive wrote - "who does the law harm more- the buyers, or the prostitutes?"

What if the answer is, or could in the near future be, the buyers?

Is it not possible that, under the Nordic Model, more punters than prostitutes have lost or could lose their jobs, homes and children after being publicly named and convicted? For example, wives filing for divorce, employers protecting company reputations, social workers "erring on the side of caution" etc.

If this does not or could not happen, what part of the Nordic model prevents it becoming the reality of punters' lives after their conviction?

fayyive wrote - "If prostitution were decriminalised, those who sell sex themselves would not be criminalised at all and wouldn't need to worry about losing their children or being kicked out by their landlord or being arrested for working with another prostitute."

The list of countries where women (and men), whether or not they are in prostitution, have their homes and/or children taken away from them includes:

The Netherlands
Germany
New Zealand

fayyive wrote - "I would rather the cops in my country do something else other than spend hours lurking outside buildings so they can hand out small fines to buyers of sex and possibly causing a prostitute to lose her home and children."

Perhaps the Nordic model could be strengthened by handing out very large fines to certain categories of punter e.g. childless buyers of sex (to avoid throwing children into poverty). The childless punters would then be subsidising punters who are fathers. As most punters display high levels of selfishness, perhaps this could sew seeds of division and resentment within the punter community, which may weaken the ability of punters and pimps to lobby for abolition of the Nordic Model. A win-win situation for feminists who oppose punters and pimps.

Whoops, my previous post should read: "this could sow seeds of division"

Damn - I just missed the Woman's Hour on Caroline Lucas - did anyone catch it? I found this the other day and wonder whether she is still more in favour of the Nordic model liberalconspiracy.org/2009/09/09/green-party-wants-rethink-on-prostitution/

I still have no party to vote for and I can't seem to find any new information on the one thing stopping me voting Green.

don't think it was mentioned, but got interrupted/distracted so not sure

On the issue of the risk of losing homes I can't give you evidence on this but being relatively knowledgeable about the private rented housing sector I doubt many landlords would be happy that their houses were being used for the purposes of prostitution,whether under a legalised system or not. I wouldn't. I would end a lease if I found out one of my flats was being used as a brothel.

Also in Scotland due to the rules under the ASBO regulations landlords are responsible for controlling their tenants' anti-social behaviour, in the house and its vicinity including the behaviour of anyone visiting or staying with tenant.

If any tenant's lifestyle is so chaotic that it involves crime /drug use which results in justifiable complaints from neighbours a landlord cannot ignore these. Failure to deal with anti-social behaviour will ultimately result in a landlord losing his registration and ability to collect rent from any property, not just the one causing a problem.

You will say I'm assuming that working as a prostitute out of a private flat is automatically anti-social behaviour. That may well be unfair but I wouldn't want to live in a block of flats where punters were coming and going so I don't think it would be reasonable if one of my flats was being used in that way for me to expect the other residents to put up with it.

Running any business from home breaches the terms of many a standard lease - childminders, for one, have to get landlord permission AFAIK.

If prostitution police is the only thing that you consider when voting, then why not vote for the BNP. They want prostitution illegal.

prostitution policy, not prostitution police

Please could you provide evidence for that? It has been asserted before but no one could find that policy. And aside from the other revolting aspects of the BNP, the argument is about criminilisation of punters - most posters do not want prostitutes criminalised, so if they do want to make prostitution illegal it's yet another reason not to vote for them.

But I suspect you just fancied a bit of a goad on a Tuesday night