Feminism for women of colour...

[AnotherEpisode]

As a black woman, I quite often feel sidelined within feminism.

I don't feel feminism addresses the difficulties faced by women of colour in western societies and quite often I feel I am drawn to race issues over feminist issues because of this.

I absolutely have more difficulties in this society because of the colour of my skin than I do because of my sex.

I feel that the lack of understanding towards racism amongst feminist circles gives me a stance of one over the other in which racism usually wins, which is unfortunate really!

This article, although written in a strong, comical and sometimes rude tone, gives a good insight!

thegrio.com/2015/02/23/patricia-arquette-blacks-gays-white-women/

Not sure why I'm posting but I'm interested in a wider perspective especially people's thoughts on the article!

It's the tears that enrage me the most. The notion that white women's upset and discomfort is far more important than woc being ignored/attacked or whatever the issue at hand is.

It's the underlying presumption of know your place in the pecking order

Wow thanks for posting that SLPA

YY that idea that you must think of white women's feelings before you voice your opinion

It's exactly what men as a group ask of feminists - we won't listen to you unless you say it in a way that we find palatable

Audre Lorde was so wonderful, thanks so much for posting superloud

Inspired me to go back and look at her speech 'the uses of anger' www.blackpast.org/1981-audre-lorde-uses-anger-women-responding-racism
"I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own. And I am not free as long as one person of Color remains chained. Nor is any one of you."
oooh I'd love to make Audre Lorde compulsory reading for everyone! Could we make it a condition of getting a driver's licence or something? :P

www.iser.essex.ac.uk/2009/01/19/the-rise-of-mixed-race-britain

This study shows the increase in mixed race relationship, the analysis is so off base it's unreal.

A quick summation would be that there are more mixed race relationships therefore society is becoming less racist.

The study completely ignores white supremacy and how it manifests itself, that your value in society is measured by your proximity to whiteness. That black people internalise racism and view 'whiteness as superior' and more 'desirable'. That maybe 48% of Caribbean men being in mixed race relationships could be indicative of something else.

My dad is black my mum is white. My father has never been in a relationship with a black woman. He dresses is choice up in preference but the truth is he like many others in society view blackness as undesirable.

Fanon helped me to understand how black people react to and participate in white supremacy.

I don't mean to jump on you xx but you cannot jump from your father to all mixed race relationships.

I know I am more sensitive on this point because my dp is white. And I have been told by many black people that my relationship is a manifestation of internalized racism. These people have also been added to my infamous Shit list.

There are many factors determining who you end up dating and in the UK at least you will mostly, I know there are exceptions, go to school and live and work with other races as a person of colour. So sometimes other races will get a look in.

I really hate the if you date outside your race you hate your race Bs. It is never directed at men to the extent it is an women. Woc of colour are somehow the work horses to breed the next generation and any deviation from this grand plan out pop the naysayers poo pooing your relationship choices.

Sexism and racism at its best with a side of cold hypocrisy.

I strongly disagree with you xx.
I am glad you raised it though because it has been used to beat me and other woc over the head for years but largely behind closed doors

Well, what an inspiring and interesting thread! it confirms everything I already thought and more. A while back there was a thread asking why MNers were not getting more involved in feminism, i posted that as a Woc i had other more pressing issues to deal with - racism. Not a single person responded, they all ignored and and carried on posting/chatting.

I notice that on this thread many of the usual vocal feminists have remained silent! but i bet they're all reading...well lets hope you're learning something. Well done to all those white feminists who have been genuinely interested and stuck there necks out to join in the debate.

Even on MN you can often feel the tension of racism albeit very thinly veiled. I wonder how racially diverse the board of MN is? any offers?

I understand where you are coming from. But I also disagree black women are always viewed as the least desirable, I am trying to find the stats but online dating stats show that black women are responded to the least by EVERY racial group.

Also how can you separate who we find desirable from how we are socialised. At every point in my life the same white supremacist narrative is reinforced.

I am not talking about desirability.

I talking about this "concern" about the internalisation of white supremacy with regard to interracial relationships.

This "concern" is most vocal and aggressive with respect to woc. It is whispered if mentioned at all in relation to men. So to me it is basic sexism. Look at the way it is discussed in black spaces. The vitriol and hatred towards the woc of colour who dare to stray.

Also xx do you not see the irony in telling my choices are invalidated because you know better about my socialisation. It is so bloody RUDE. Not you personally just the concept. Hey if you were socialised better you would be with a black man like a good and proper black woman. Fucking outrageous.

I have worded my badly, the crux of what I want to say is we internalise racism. That manifest itself in several ways and black women bare the brunt of this.

I know nothing about your relationship, I am speaking broadly. (Not relevant but my current partner is white).

Once DS goes to bed I will speak in more detail.

I am not angry with you xx.

My point is that this type of research that talks about

• internalised racism
• growing numbers of mixed race children
• lack of desirability of black women

Is used to control woc into towing the party line. Black dp/dh treating you poorly, cheating on etc = well no one else wants you and if you so much as look at anyone outside of your race, you're a race traitor.

It's actually genius really because it such a body blow. You are ugly and unworthy. And you hate your own community. It seems to be far more effective in the USA compared to the UK.

All these "concerned" observers are terribly terribly concerned with woc

The mixed race study doesn't talk about black women's experiences at all that's why its so rubbish. The study I was talking about was was this

qz.com/149342/the-uncomfortable-racial-preferences-revealed-by-online-dating/

Which shows that black women are ALWAYS the least desirable to EVERYONE I agree that black men are under the same scrutiny or have their choices critiqued.

White supremacy is ubiquitous, everyone is victim to it.

I also agree that the internalise racism discourse is manipulated to further police black women. But that doesn't negate the fact that we are always conditioned to view 'whiteness' as superior more desirable.

please switch to BBC, there's a programmes called "suffragettes forever".

Oh my God! please switch to BBC, there's a programmes called "suffragettes forever".

White middle class woman here.

I admire you OP for putting this out on mumsnet, because people like to shut their eyes to the WOC issues and pretend that we live in a generally tolerant society now.
The truth is, and many won't agree, that we whites are born into privilege, don't have to prove ourselves as hard as other races do, and won't be marginalised and generalised about when we make mistakes either. It's only since I have got older that I have realised this. I'm no academic but I'm well aware of these issues due to self education and the genuine perspectives from people of Afro-Caribbean origin.

Normal stereotypes about white women are tame compared to woc. For example pretty ditzy barbie types, vicky pollard chavvy mum, or middle class yummy mummy.

Black women are called angry, aggressive, materialistic, etc etc a lot of the time by men who are black themselves. Couple that with those men these days seemingly having a high preference for white women, is it any wonder the stress and pressure black women and particularly their daughters are facing?

I could go on all night about these kinds of issues but I doubt many of mumsnet are really aware of these problems. Many people in these discussions just put their rose tinted glasses on and insist they don't see colour or race, culture or religion. They 'see the person'.
But sometimes that's bullshit IMHO. Tell that to the highly educated black and Muslim women I know who have been bullied at their workplaces or been subjected to abuse. I strongly agree that a woc's experience of feminism is different to a white woman's and that is purely based on treatment at the hands of others, whether male or female.

Ok I knew your point on desirability

But if we follow your logic if by luck a black woman finds some kindly man who happens not to be black who wants a healthy relationship. She ought to take a pause to check her internalised racism!

Black men just don't face this kind of judgement.

The studies are 99% used to control woc. I am surprised you haven't been exposed to it xx. Lucky you if you have had any black men express their "concern" for you.

This concern happens behind closed doors, there are no bruises and no honour killings. It is the dirty secret of the black community. It's racist and sexist. And no one really likes to talk about it, because woc are supposed to support their men

Yes I agree whiteness is the socialised preference.

Have you seen the doll experiments where black little girls are given black and white dolls and told to pick the nicest /prettiest /smartest doll and nearly all select the white dolls?

That is sad but I think this is why the presentation of woc in the media and books is do important. Blackness cannot and should not be the default for poverty, failure, ugliness, stupidity etc. That to me is how you help this generation of little woc. I would tolerate 1000 pink tutu wearing black princesses if it provided some positive images out there

I absolutely take your point on 'concern' trolls who highlights our pain under guise of 'concern'.

My point more broadly is on the fact black women cannot be desirable. And how it then manifest itself.

Funny the double standards actually. If black men prefer white women they are just having a 'preference' but if black women go for white men then they are 'whitewashed' and 'trying to act white'. I've heard this quite a few times personally.

Well that's the whole issue black women aren't women.

When we want more women on panel TV shows, in stand up comedy or on boards or in parliament we mean white women. Feminists do not see the problem with not seeing colour as foxy mentioned.

Woc need to be in these places too so that we are not the least preferred option. Woc have equal worth and feminists need to support this or they are complicit with the status quo.

Foxy I don't talk to members of my own family because of this nonsense . They couldn't see the irony in their "concern " was only for me the woman. Male cousins totally different story. We have now come to a stalemate because I will fight my corner.

As for our daughters as I said earlier in the thread. Financial independence and education. I look to no man or woman to validate me or my choices let alone pay for them. My dp is wonderful bonus in my life. But I can pay my bills and face the day without him. Community is wonderful but it can also be narrow minded and inhibiting.