Feminism for women of colour...

[AnotherEpisode]

As a black woman, I quite often feel sidelined within feminism.

I don't feel feminism addresses the difficulties faced by women of colour in western societies and quite often I feel I am drawn to race issues over feminist issues because of this.

I absolutely have more difficulties in this society because of the colour of my skin than I do because of my sex.

I feel that the lack of understanding towards racism amongst feminist circles gives me a stance of one over the other in which racism usually wins, which is unfortunate really!

This article, although written in a strong, comical and sometimes rude tone, gives a good insight!

thegrio.com/2015/02/23/patricia-arquette-blacks-gays-white-women/

Not sure why I'm posting but I'm interested in a wider perspective especially people's thoughts on the article!

As a white woman, I don't consider anyone representative of their "class" (as far as I can be aware, at least).
Can I ask how much is it that people perceive themselves to be under the microscope or expected to be in certain ways, or to represent their group, and how much is other people actually doing it?
I am also speaking as someone who went to live, study and work in the UK from a white country that had traditionally been associated with low grade emigration, i.e. to work in cleaning, factory or construction jobs.

Flora you answered you own complaint. Grassroots working class efforts don't get multiple write ups on the guardian or the various blogs.

But lily Allen, Patricia Arquette and chums do. The frustration that I imagine you and I both feel is that those who shout loudest are dominating the conversation. I know it's galling that the likes of me complain about some feminism but if we all keep quiet and hope the conversation expands to include more women. We will be waiting a long time.

I think picking and choosing which bits of feminism to engage in is the right response. If all feminism gets a blank cheque of support there is no incentive for things to change. So I will complain about Lily Allen and Patricia Arquette and any one who Co opts feminism in a tone deaf manner.

Thank you for raising this OP - I wish there was more black feminism chat on FWR so I could lurk and learn.

I shy away from raising it on topics because I feel pretty sure I'll just end up misunderstanding, getting the wrong end of every stick possible or worse, thinking I understand and then blundering into the race equivalent of mansplaining, pissing off posters who already have enough ignorance to deal with in real life without looking for more online.

Arquette's speech made me go 'yes?' and then 'noooooo!' and then want to bang my head on the nearest desk, but looking for the silver lining I'm glad it's making people question further (the comments section in the article)

Lweji

If a Muslim woman does X . In the media it is written up as indicative of the Muslim community and Muslim women.
If I screw up at my job as the only black woman in the niche bit of finance I do. I know it will be interpreted as black women do X. If you Lweji do X. It will not reflect on all white women.
It's being the token ethnic

Yes, I get that in the media, particularly a certain type of media.
But is it really that it would be seen as all black people failing if you failed at your job, as perceived by your colleagues?
Not more than you failing as a woman for example?
I think it would be interesting to inquire (although not directly) your colleagues.

I see the treatment coffee mentions in my office daily and am guilty of it myself - there are only two directors who are women; I'm one (white) and M is the other (black). When she was first hired I assumed she was a new secretary, I tried to kid myself that this was because she was placed on the floor instead of in an office temporarily but honestly had we first met in the boardroom I'd have made the same assumption. Being mistaken for the minute taker in meetings happens to me a lot of the time and so from a purely feminist perspective I should have been aware.
Before she joined a breakdown of black women's roles in my office would have revealed 70% catering staff, 20% graduates, 10% assistants. Besides M there are still none among our senior managers, directors, or above.

I hire a lot of staff and I've never yet been presented with a black woman as a candidate to interview (only about 5% of the candidates that make it to me for interview are women and those are almost always antipodean, as is M, split pretty equally between white European and Indian ancestry). Ethnicity, sex, age, disability, and name (other than initials) are all removed from CVs before they are sent to my department so it is unlikely they (black female candidates) are being removed systematically by my team in the initial CV filter stage. I would genuinely like to know where my missing candidates are because I need them.

Apologies if I've blundered here and offended - I use black because that is what M uses for herself.

Last question first. I think your candidates if the non white are probably in the public sector which I'd perceived as being more equal or what I have notices all my non white peers went for qualifications over intangible qualities ie an accountant rather than a mgt consultant . Qualifications aren't subjective.

Also I notice that woc particularly black women won't change jobs even when unhappy because you have to build up your credibility from zero as well as getting hired. I am just very out going so I think I am somewhat unusual.

Lweji No I am definitely a black woman. I don't think people at work see me as a woman who is also black. And as toffee points out woc in certain industries are so rare that when they do X. It's easy to assume and extrapolate that all woc do X.

Watching and reading with interest.

I agree with toffeepenny about the speech.

I'm quite tired so I'm probably not going to be able to explain this very eloquently.

I think there are certain issues BME women are encouraged to gravitate towards. As an British Asian woman I remember there being a lot of focus on domestic violence, arranged marriages and the (Fantastic) work of the Southall Black Sisters whilst I was growing up. With awareness of these issues having such a focus in my community I felt like it was one of the few areas of feminism that Indian women were qualified to talk about. Everything else was for white women.

Heavy caveat. I am tired so my typing is deteriorating and my observations are biased towards London and finance and law. But the staying in the same crap job for years was something I kept seeing black women doing. I found it very sad and depressing.

Thanks coffee I'm also finance (I did train in the public sector but the situation was no better there, still mostly catering staff and secretaries).

I also see the 'being loathe to leave crap jobs' among our black female grads - even when they are being badly bullied they will not risk reporting or offending their boss by moving to another area (including mine). It is depressing.

Staying in the same role obviously also massively hurts your salary.

Also, another woman who has been "the [insert ethnicity here] one". When it's how people describe you, you'd need to be fairly stubborn to ignore it. So not all in my mind. However, I have also noticed that in my current industry sector, I am no longer referred to as the ethnic one. (I might be referred to as the woman).

I could well be wrong, but aren't women in general less likely to move jobs, ask for pay rises and promotions anyway?
I understand and agree that being black makes it worse, but the female component is still an important factor.
I think what I'm saying is that I suspect that being a female nowadays probably plays a bigger role than race. But could be wrong.

Lweji, people are telling you that their race plays a bigger role than their sex in the prejudices others hold about them. It is rude to contradict them.

Actually rude doesn't cover it. It's beyond rude, even though it's probably totally unintentional. It's denying other people's experiences so that they might feel unheard - not just unheard by 'most people' but by feminists, who are supposed to be aware of how dismissive it is to deny and to minimise somebody else's reality.

Asian muslim woman here. Despite working in my professional field for over 15 years, I still have not been able to obtain the salary that my white female colleague commands in the same role. My work has always been credited to the department as a whole despite external parties giving credit to the work carried out by me. My name gets added last to work despite most of the work being carried out by me.

I remember in my previous job, 5 years into my career when a new graduate started and I was involved in training her; once she qualified, her salary was more than mine.

I remember the time when I applied for a promotion in my department and was unable to get to the interview stage as the goal post had changed - specifically because I had applied. The challenges presented at that point became insurmountable so I had to withdraw my application.

So yes, in my experience, my race is more of an issue than my gender. Add the fact that about 7 years into my career I started to wear a hijab and work declared that i must be doing that because a man has made me and my skin colour makes me oppressed by default. This being despite the fact that i was single.

Today, I am by default responsible and must condemn a whole load of actions of muslim people who i do not know, before I will even be considered a female professional in my workplace. My experience has shown me that I have to constantly prove myself and offer justifications and apologies for being me - it may sound harsh, but by being me i mean, being asian and muslim.

I totally get what a previous poster said about WOC having to work harder than their white counterparts. I would add to that also being nicer! You don't have the luxury of complaining as you don't want to be the Asian muslim woman who causes trouble and thereby tarnishing every asian muslim woman as whiners with a questionable work ethic!

Thanks for this thread

I work with senior members of a profession that has traditionally been female-dominated and continues to be, and has a high proportion of people of colour and women of colour in particular at entry level. When I am in a room full of these senior members of the profession, there are lots of women as you would expect. However there is an obviously disproportionately high number of men, and disproportionately few people of colour, in particular women of colour. It's obvious to see how racism (and sexism but to a lesser degree) is working here

The disproportion is in comparison to the entry-level and mid-level members, to be clear

Doesnot why have you stayed with your employer after these experiences?

I know you are right about the hijab because I admit I can be more stand offish. I went to a school with with lot of Muslim and Jewish girls so I don't feel under exposed to either religion but no one wore any head coverings and I have never worked with anyone who did.

I thought on the basis of my schooling I was better than that. A couple of years ago I had minor surgery but general anaesthetic. I was put on a little ward to recover for an hour or two. There were mainly elderly women and this young woman who was opposite me. We chatted while we ate our dry toast in our little gowns in bed and got on well. When it was time to leave. Curtains were pulled and we got dressed. Curtains came back and she had put on a hijab and quite conservative clothes. I was so shocked I forgot to say goodbye. But that was the first time I had realised how bad I was and I technically should know better. I make a more concoious effort now but still never been in a office with ladies wearing hijabs yet.

Lweji I am always a black woman first never just a woman. I don't pick and choose which bit to emphasise.

Btw Doesnot I totally agree about being nicer. I smile all the bloody time and never show any sign of being annoyed. I feel obliged to not fulfil anything that even hints at being the angry black woman. I also try to work as many hours as possible to demonstrate that black people aren't lazy.

Someone early said they veer away from intersectional topics in case they say the wrong thing. I understand why you might do that but then it does kind of cement the sensation that mainstream feminism doesn't care. And if only woc can talk about their issues in effect that is quite a lot of heavy lifting for them to undertake. There is no harm in starting a thread about any topic in feminism chat. The absence of the conversation is worse than a badly articulated sentence. As a dreadful typist I will always cut people slack for less than perfect prose

Can I ask a question which may seem trivial in amongst these important themes? It's about references to people's ethnicity being used here. There has been a furore in the media recently over a couple of white males using the term coloured when referring to non-white people. Benedict Cumberbatch was the last one. It all kicked off and he was very apologetic. And yet 'women of colour' (or 'color' for our American friends) is acceptable. Is there a difference? What am I missing?

Woc is a very American phrase but useful because it is better imo than saying non white which assumes white is the default.

Coloured imo is used by older people. It is old fashioned and when used by someone cumbers age it feels like a deliberate dig. I am not suggesting that is what he intended but when I hear it from a young person that is what I think.

I think it's the equivalent of constantly calling a sahm a housewife or calling Sri Lanka ceylon or a south African or Australian a person from the colonies. It is is so jarring I just think the person is trying to be rude yet clever. People over 50 I let it slide for everyone else they just seem very sheltered or rude.

For cumber I imagine he was going for people of colour but tripped over his words.

Thank you, Coffee. It has been confusing me. I associate 'coloured' with South Africa and apartheid. It's not a term I see used in the UK any more, and probably hasn't been used since the 70's.

The thing is yop I am from the UK and have family in the USA. So my opinion will be different from a south African.
But even from a south African perspective coloured is the legal term for a mixed race or Indian origin person i think so (definitely don't know) it would still be inappropriate in the context of talking about a group of non white people and in the UK I would assume they were speaking from the context of what is the norm in Britain. Does anyone else know more about what it means in South Africa ?