Feminism for women of colour...

[AnotherEpisode]

As a black woman, I quite often feel sidelined within feminism.

I don't feel feminism addresses the difficulties faced by women of colour in western societies and quite often I feel I am drawn to race issues over feminist issues because of this.

I absolutely have more difficulties in this society because of the colour of my skin than I do because of my sex.

I feel that the lack of understanding towards racism amongst feminist circles gives me a stance of one over the other in which racism usually wins, which is unfortunate really!

This article, although written in a strong, comical and sometimes rude tone, gives a good insight!

thegrio.com/2015/02/23/patricia-arquette-blacks-gays-white-women/

Not sure why I'm posting but I'm interested in a wider perspective especially people's thoughts on the article!

Buffy I did not say your experience was not what you had experienced. I said I had never experienced this and explained why.

My second response to you was rude because you were so dismissive of what I said. And irrelevant actually. I am not a middle aged white man.

As for a universal truth , that's exactly what comes across from much that is posted here, just that it's such a negative version of being female.

Well I have had negative experiences. I have had different experiences and I have positive experiences.

Should we all just keep quiet and only post a pollyanna world view.

And fwiw in my opinion I read your posts as insinuating that woc are too blame for not being smartly dressed, because your experience was the only relevant one.

the middle-aged white man comment reflected "looking the part" in academia, nothing to do with law. smartness is rarely a signifier of seniority in academia IME, particularly if you are male and/or white, as peckham's example illustrates:

"But going back to scientists - lets say you're in a building where you know there are scientists (not exactly known for sartorial elegance), among many other disciplines -

• You see a middle aged, overweight, slightly scruffy, white man - what do you assume about his role?

• You see a middle aged, overweight, slightly scruffy, black woman - what do you assume about her role?"

often the most formally-dressed people at scientific conferences (depending on field) are the conference organising staff and the marketing and PR people who are exhibiting on stands.

I am like you buffy I don't read the research saying how crap my life chances are. And broadly my up bringing has given me the tools to shrug off some of the more annoying aspects. However this thread has made me think in some instances we can make small improvements.

I real think all the diversity training in corporates is geared towards middle management men particularly client facing.

This excludes a raft of individuals who also help create the atmosphere at work. Why is the default that women of all backgrounds have these skills innately.

petula the question is why are you not taking steps to find out what the speaker looks like beforehand and if that is not possible be polite to both of the overweight scruffies. Why does anyone need to be offhand and rude to someone they think is a cleaner or ea or privileged person.

Privileged should read pr

"the question is why are you not taking steps to find out what the speaker looks like beforehand and if that is not possible be polite to both of the overweight scruffies. Why does anyone need to be offhand and rude to someone they think is a cleaner or ea or privileged person."

oh absolutely. i've read comments on threads about rudeness to shop/waiting staff saying "well they might be a PhD student", as though that is the only reason you would be polite to someone

I have attended five diversity days. On none of these days was ethnicity or gender covered. All five diversity trainers were white.

Which brings us full circle to training.

It is assumed that men particularly white men need guidance not to be sexist or racist in a work context once they reach a certain pay grade or role.

But women of any description can sail through working life not really having to think about their behaviour. I have encountered shockingly racist and rude women at work, who were nice enough to me because I was alright. But no one pulled them up because if wasn't a priority.

At a basic level some people are rude and obnoxious. And part of that rudeness will manifest as racism or sexism. But no one seems bothered unless they are client facing, in authority or recorded on YouTube om public transport.

There seems to be an attitude that if you are junior you can be an arse. Why can we not have a blanket expectation of politeness and training for all. So it is not up to victims of the rudeness to say that isn't on. It can be simply stated that you are in breach of company policy which you were trained in.

Two things:
My father was a scientist, and very much known for his sartorial elegance. Although we will draw a veil over the powder blue Robert Mugabe style safari suit, a rare mistake.

And:
As for a universal truth , that's exactly what comes across from much that is posted here, just that it's such a negative version of being female

I don't think anyone here feels negative about being female, but many people who post here have had very negative treatment at the hands of others because they are female. And there is nothing wrong with saying so.

It is true, as Buffy says, that repeated naming of the problem can end up being demotivating. At the same time, having a place to come and talk about something that has happened to you and be heard and understood, can be encouraging and empowering.

Whodrank, I would be really surprised if companies with diversity training policies aren't including women and men in receiving that training. Or have I misunderstood your post?

I am perhaps exaggerating to say they were not covered. They were mentioned in passing. What was not covered was a. any discussion of experiences any individuals from those groups had and b. any guidance on what everyone else should do about it. These were comprehensively covered for other groups.

almond
The training is only given ime once you reach management or client facing level. So each time I have started I get a new starter pack that sets out xyz but no actual training. We are talking global companies and I am quite senior now.

Therefore if you are not in those roles you just get on with it. So unless a someone complains formally there is no intervention.

So working in finance which is generally not client facing and may have small amouts of management activity you do come across some pretty poor behaviour. And like buffy and others I don't complain because you don't rock the boat etc.

at my organisation there is a blanket policy that everyone has to attend a day's compulsory equality and diversity training, plus another session on unconscious bias, as part of their induction. it covers all protected characteristics under the equalities act (so includes race). the problem is that these are not compulsory for people who were already working here before the training was introduced, and top-up training is recommended but not compulsory, though some managers do make it part of performance management of their own direct reports (my line manager's own line manager has had to do this as my line manager (white, female) hasn't gone after five years in the job). the equality and diversity director is pushing for it to be made compulsory, as there are many who just won't go if not made to.

Sorry that was in answer to knickers

Whodrank, I think you're answering Menace?

Sorry, x post.

i took ages writing that, sorry - it was following on from whodrank's post of 15:59:27

Ah, I see, thanks. When I've had it, everyone got it, client facing or not (but it was in response to an internal issue, TBF). Where I haven't had it, nobody had it!

Exactly knickers that is my point the burden shouldn't be on someone to complain it should just be done like fire drills. Besides who wants to complain when the general attitude is you imagined it or you provoked it.

I'm like buffy and who, my opinion is I was born human then I was born equal, if you have a problem with it it's your problem it is not mine.
"The greatest weapon in the hand of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed" is one of my favourite quotes.

True awa but there comes a point when people need to just stop being rude and nobbish.

And I think it's up to employers to ensure they don't create hostile work places by waiting until someone is so put upon that they complain.

Sometimes I just want to go about my business in a public space or work and not have to deal with other people's low grade racism and or sexism towards me. And most of the time I do and that is great. But when it does occur the default should not be on me to rise above it but for people to just treat others with a general standard of politeness and respect.
But I am grumpy and taking public transport a lot more than usual at the moment