What do men think feminists should be focusing their energies on?

[PetulaGordino]

It's pretty clear that there are many men with constructive criticism to offer feminists in terms of what feminist issues they should be focusing their energies, activism and outrage on.

This vital advice is at risk of being lost, spread as it is among myriad threads in this section. Perhaps it would be a good idea to collect it together into one thread, for ongoing reference when posters in this section consider their feminist activities and whether they are really focusing on the right issues.

Obviously it should be borne in mind that feminists are only able to focus strictly on one topic at a time in terms of activism and outrage, so don't overload us with too many issues at once!

I can legitimately and competently operate a digger, have some circles of friends that are almost entirely male and some the opposite, am the main earner in my family, and make frankly amazing cakes.

Am I a cool girl, a traditional gender stereotype or occupying a feminist gender role?

Or am I perhaps a person with a diverse range of interests and skills, who recognises that we are sone way off equality?

'But imagine - not just to feel what it is to be human from one subjective perspective, but to say - yes, this is human and that is society, and here is where one becomes other. Not just feeling, but knowing. I can't imagine a more worthy epiphany to be labelled as enlightenment.'

I do not think we could ever know this. And I think it is absurd to imagine that the way we would come to know it, would be through academic study of the kind you mention. The idea that we could ever know relies on a very absolute view of truth, a view of truth which has historically been perpetuated in a fairly misogynistic way.

Patriarchy likes to tell us there are absolute truths, and that we (or rather, some of us. Guess which ones?) are capable of looking outside of our social conditioning to perceive them. This is an arrogant assumption. It does relate to enlightement, but not in a particularly positive way.

I though that, house. But meph appears to think my posts are beneath his notice.

Yes, I find "honorary man" when used in this context offensive too. It implies a woman is not considered patriarchy-approved good looking/available enough to be a potential sexual partner.

MephistophelesApprentice - it is becoming increasing apparent to me that neither you nor your girlfriend have the slightest clue as to what feminism is really about. You are both woefully and dangerously misinformed. Every single example you have given of "what feminists think" is simply not true.

AnyFucker

I was asked (in the thread title) for my opinions. I gave them. I was asked to explain. I did so, using the example of the woman I know who fitted best into the category I described. People continued to address the point, so I continued using the best source of information I had available and the one that formed my opinion.

If people had said "thank you for the contribution" or even just "piss off" I would not have continued. But questions have been asked and debating points introduced that needed clarification (and my boss is tolerant) so I have continued.

I don't particularly want my girlfriend to be a feminist, in the same way I don't particularly want her to be a Mormon, but I do feel that if a woman who is thoroughly convinced of gender equality and thoroughly convinced that the current law and society does not reflect gender equality* feels rejected by feminism it is something your movement might want to address.

honourary man with a female perspective

Honorary in this context meaning: "conferred as an honour, without the usual requirements or functions."

She can communicate in a manner compatible with traditional male interactions (as presently enacted) but has lived as a woman.

*Also pro-choice, free female sexual expression, LGBT freedom, no gender roles etc

Er, yes, we know what honourary means. That's why we think it's rude.

D'you know something. I can also communicate in a manner compatible with traditional male interactions. I can talk big bollocks if I want to.

This is not an 'honour' to me.

Why does your girlfriend have such a low opinion of women?

There is so much I want to say about cool girls. I probably shouldn't start but hey ho.

Being a cool girl myself, I too very much enjoy the gold stars I get from men when I prove myself to not be one of those annoying women. Upon (shamefully, several years of) reflection, I realised that my easy wins on this front (after all, we are all very well trained in what men find annoying about women) from the average man who, let's be frank, sees women as just that tad bit less awesome than men, were probably saying more about my desire to be 'the best' than any sort of 'natural' preference or deep seated distaste for female company in general. I'm a bit shy and have slightly low self esteem, so being seen as a top quality social animal was very enjoyable for me. Women, it seems on the whole, aren't as surprised to find another woman capable of wit and conversation on a variety of topics, and they didn't tend to reward me as heavily for my ability to do this. Which is obviously a crushing disappointment, but given that it's probably a more honest way to live, I'm learning to deal with it.

Sadly, no woman ever pays me the top-level compliment of 'well, you're not really a woman!', but I guess that's the cost of doing business, as it were, in a way that doesn't treat life as a competitive sport.

It's not "my movement's" responsibility to address the ignorance of you and your girlfriend. I thought that this thread had made that perfectly clear.

Women's rights, such as they are? It seemed pretty clear to me, but as I said, I cannot discuss trans issues as I know no people within that category from whom I can learn first hand.

You seem pretty determined to do so though.

"Trans" are not excluded from women's rights. There are women who identify as trans. I don't choose to exclude trans people from my ideology. I refuse to pretend to believe something I don't believe no matter how loudly men and queer theorists demand it.

I agree "honorary man" is offensive. I can't imagine wanting to be described that way.

"Women's rights, such as they are? It seemed pretty clear to me"

Which rights, though?

Equal pay? Check. Marital rape illegal? Check. Reducing street harassment? Check.

Access to women's DV shelters? Check or uncheck?

Lesbian porn actress being able to opt not to perform with trans women? Check or uncheck?

I wonder if a man would ever be pleased to be referred to as an "honorary woman"? No? You might want to ponder what that says about the relative value of "maleness" and "femaleness" to the average Joe. And Josephine.

Sadly there's always going to be sick weirdos who want to rape or hurt others unfortunately or take advantage of those too drunk to know what they're doing. Tis the world we live in unfortunately. sad There has been evil humans since the start of time.

I actually wish that was true. But rapists are nor sick wierdos, they are brothers, sons, fathers, husbands.

They are ordinary everyday people, just people who, like you, think that their penis gives them some kind of superiority.

I wonder how many rapists call everyone 'Love', I wonder how many call all women 'Love'?

I have docs but my dungarees are in the wash, I'm straight but my disguise keeps people like you magnetic away.

Oh, some men love it, annie. The whole 'oooh, yes, I post on MN, I'm like an honorary woman, I'm so secure in my masculinity that even talking to ladyeez doesn't bother me'.

Not, I hasten to add, that this is what I think of all male posters on MN. But some of them, you can just see they get a massive kick out of banging on about how down with the wimmin they are.

Meph I don't know how to say this without being patronising, but as you have said you are non-neurotypical it may help you to know that this thread was intended satirically. We had a weekend of deliberate and persistent derailers who would not allow posters to engage with threads, and this involved a lot of telling feminists why they are wrong to focus on x instead of y. Also telling feminists "this is what you believe and this is why you are stupid" when the neither thing had been demonstrated. This thread came out of that.

I am afraid that you have come in on the back of that and your posts are unfortunately confirming the feeling that men who want to tell feminists what they should and shouldn't be doing, and how they should be doing it, tend to have little breadth and depth of understanding of the issues

I realise that it may well not have been your intention to come across this way, but putting the thread in context may help to understand why you are getting these responses

Meph, do you know any men who proudly refer to themselves as an honorary woman?

X post Annie

being 'like a woman' is almost an insult

Sadly it's not almost an insult at all. It is absolutely an insult.

You throw like a girl.
You run like a girl.
He screamed like a little girl.
Don't be such a pussy.

There would probably be more insults along the lines of "don't xxxx like a woman", except that we seem to be universally infantalised by everyone calling us "girls" no matter what our age.

Oh, the girls at my office so shallow.
I'll get one of the girls to set up a meeting next week.
The gym is full of girls who are just there to look pretty.
The girl who served me in the shop today.

Can I just point out that Mephistopheles seems to be wilfully misunderstanding the point I was trying to make, which fortunately Petula made rather more succinctly: "i genuinely do not know what you mean by this. feminists do not recognise gender roles. i enjoy dyeing yarn and knitting in a very amateur way - this is not me conforming to my gender or expressing myself as a woman or anything, it is me as a person, doing something i enjoy. likewise i enjoy rock climbing in an equally amateur way. this is not me deliberately flouting gender stereotypes or showing off my feminist credentials - i am just a person who enjoys doing stuff."

BTW, I think it was me who first used the term "honorary man" - not as a term of approbation, but as a descriptive term of how I used to find (certainly in rather sexist circles in the mid 1980s) that men chose to relate to me in social and study circles which were predominantly male - I was not playing the patriarchal game of setting myself up to be attractive, but nor was I (young, aware of the power imbalance, slightly on my guard) trying to challenge their behaviour - so they went for what was to them the simplest approach to dealing with my presence, which was to ignore the fact that I was female. Yes, I could have called them on it, but in the situations I was in, that would have been setting myself up for a world of pain, and probable exclusion from stuff I actually wanted to do. I am relieved to report that most of the stuff I want to do - physics, climbing - has become much less sexist in the decades since.

You do get 'honorary woman' - in my experience it's exclusively for gay or bisexual men who get called 'one of the girls'.

Worth noting, of course, that gay men are usually seen by men as somewhat 'lesser' in the magical hierarchy of the world. Basically 'you can be an honourary woman, if you're an inferior man!'

Indeed, shaska. They are both reductive in the same way.