If you have dds, do you think their life will be better than yours (from the pov of being a woman, not in general)?

[Takver]

Struggling with how to word this, but I was thinking about it the other day. I left school in 1988, so a long time ago now. I would say that the opportunties I had were noticeably better than say if I'd been 10 years older and finished school in 1978. But I don't really see that there have been any major improvements since then. As in, I don't think my dd will have a better chance in life than I did, as regards sexism. What do others reckon - am I being pessimistic?

I guess my comparison would be that life for a LGBTQ teen would I think be a great deal better than for someone in the same position 30 years ago, although obviously there is still bullying, intolerance et al.

I think I feel as pessimistic as you OP. I don't feel things have really improved much since I left school (90s). I think there have been legislative improvements (eg. better mat leave, flexible working) so it's not all bad but I do worry that some of the cultural shifts since I was a young woman have been for the worse. I think the explosion of the internet and all that goes with it (trolling, porn, cyber bullying etc) makes the world quite a daunting place to send my DD into.

No, I'm afraid she won't. The objectification is worse, as is the open misogyny, and the male violence against women doesn't seem to be any less - there are improvements in the way it's dealt with but it's still only a tiny minority of victims who get justice. This will offset other gains like the fact that there are now more women in senior roles to look up to than before when there were zero in some fields.

There was a big improvement in things like equal opps at work, maternity leave, etc, that I benefited from compared to women older than me, but I don't see another big leap between my generation and hers.

I believe that our dds will have the opportunities to progress in their careers, and continue with education to as high a level as they wish. I don't believe there is any reason in this modern age to stop working, or pursuing careers after children. I feel extremely lucky to be a mother in this age, as we have so many opportunities, and can achieve anything.

I don't think it will be better for my DD than for me. But then, I always felt I could do anything my brother could (in terms of education, opportunities etc), so I'm not sure what more than that I would expect / hope for her?

I'm not saying there isn't still a lot of sexism around btw. But not (for me, and hopefully my DD) in the areas I mention.

my dd will make of her life what she wants to make of it just like I have. I haven't noticed a lot of sexism around even though I work in a make dominated industry - its certainly not stopped me progressing in my career.

the only person who can make your life better is you - you are solely responsible for it and the decisions you make. if you don't like it - change it!

No I don't think it will apart from in one aspect,possibly.
When I left schooln(mid 1980's) men who helped with housework,childcare etc were referred to as 'new men',and were the exception rather than the rule. I do think that finally there has been a shift towards a greater expectation that men will pull their weight more in the domestic setting.

That's very true, BloodyWoman. That is a positive shift.

Actually, one thing I think will be better is that women will be more prepared for recognising and finding strategies to deal with the sexism. I think many of my generation were rather naive in that we were generally told, 'oh, there won't be any sexism when you're in work!' and it didn't quite turn out that way.
I'm going to make sure my dd hears advice from people like Xenia who have achieved what they wanted to and have a clear idea how. I know she is not universally popular but she has some very sound things to say, like, being self-employed as a way of avoiding institutional sexism if you're in a field where that is a problem.

IN a way things are worse for our DDs now than they were for us, as the 'porn generation' comes of age.

Just this very morning I finally wormed it out of DD16 why she was refusing to go to school and had given her ex bf a punch on the nose. Yes he was demanding naked pics after she had dumped him, said that she 'owed' him.
I am fucking fuming.

Also she is the ONLY girl in her whole year group who chose engineering! the ONLY!!

However I certainly do not feel that I was not offered the same educational opportunities as boys. OK there was the one school where girls were not allowed to sign up for MVE or TD.....now I think of it...

I think a lot of this is down to the attitude of the dads as well as the mums. I was lucky enough to be brought up by a dad whose idea of a pinup was Madame Curie. haha.

"I think many of my generation were rather naive in that we were generally told, 'oh, there won't be any sexism when you're in work!' and it didn't quite turn out that way. "

I guess I didn't have that problem, in that my mum experienced a lot of sexism at work, including within her union (which I guess was more frustrating as they were meant to be on the workers' side).

'I do think that finally there has been a shift towards a greater expectation that men will pull their weight more in the domestic setting'

I think there has been a shift in the right direction but still a long way to go. People still talk about men 'baby sitting' their own children for one. I had a stern lecture from a friend a couple of years ago about how I should be incredibly grateful that my male DP does the laundry and shares cooking with me Women still do the vast majority of housework and child care. There's still a lot of cobblers around about how men 'don't see dirt' and 'can't multitask' and are generally a bit useless when it comes to domestic stuff.

Sunny, absolutely agree that this can't all be laid at the feet of mums - dads are parents too. Your poor DD, but well done her for refusing and for making her feelings clear to him! How grubby and demeaned she must feel. Its just horrendous that naked pics etc have become so normalised.

I don't think my DDs will see much improvement at all.

Some things are changing for the better- it's great that maternity/paternity leave can be shared and I think fathers are expected to be more 'hands on'. There are a lot more sahds and I think child rearing and earning a salary are seen as more equal.

What worries me though is the availability of porn and the resulting sexual expectations. I think as far as sexuality goes, young women are expected to be willing to do anything, whether or not they enjoy it. Reading all the discussion s about the rape guidelines, it's clear that a lot of people in our society- both men and women- find it hard to believe that women could and should be full, active, enthusiastic participants in every sexual encounter.

Though peggyundercrackers she did deal with it, by becoming the rep for her workplace - but she certainly didn't lead me to expect a level playing field when I went to work.

"Also she is the ONLY girl in her whole year group who chose engineering! the ONLY!!" That is really depressing.

Sunny has a good point.
I keep hearing of the huge pressure for young women to perform certain sexual acts.
Also there seems to be more pressure to wear extreme make up -false eyelashes every day etc.

thank you mners; I really felt like 'going up the school' and landing him in it. Apparently when his nose was dripping with blood, he was going to 'tell the teacher' !! What an idiot! Luckily the other boys around him pointed out what a tool he was being, the other boys yes, so there is hope yet!!

What would you all do in this case? Let it go or storm in?

I left school in 1979, chemistry degree, career in science and have been one of the lucky ones to pretty much escape the worst of sexism - I think that just a few years before that could have been significantly worse.

As to my DD - well, so far she's having a fairly charmed existence - another 16yo set on engineering but as she's at a girls' school she's not the only one - 4 of them did the Akwright scholarship exam yesterday (wonder how many would have at a comparable boys school or mixed? She hasn't yet (AFAIK) come across the internet nastiness - I'm sure she will but hopefully not till she's mature enough to deal with it. She self-defines as a feminist and is unlikely to take much shit from anyone!

If they were wanting to follow my career, then yes, things have definitely improved. Without a shadow of a doubt.

But neither of them are remotely interested in doing that.

So probably no.

" (wonder how many would have at a comparable boys school or mixed? "
at a mixed school, none probably.
How I wish I had found a nice girls school for my DD! As it is she has to sit in engineering listening to the most disgusting porny sex talk which the teacher cannot or will not hear over the noise of the machinery or tools.

So can we ask what your career is then Ms GB?

But taking a completely different line from the career thing, most women's opportunity to stay home with their kids, (which I believe is a valid choice, and one I made myself, as a feminist) has completely disappeared now, with the additional financial pressures on families, and the need for two incomes.

You can't expect to remove centuries of entrenched sexism in a generation or two, it is going to feel like two steps forwards and one step back....

Yes, there is still objectification of women and sexism, but I think we forget how very entrenched and pervasive (and wholly accepted) those attitudes were back in the 70's / 80's (when I was growing up).....I really don't think that shows like Benny Hill would get an airing now.

Sexist attitudes still exist but are much likely now to be consistently and vociferously challenged. Look at the Girl Guides Association getting involved in the No Page 3 campaign for starters.

Hardly scientific but my 12 year old plays in a girls football team with 12 other girls teams in her league. I didn't get to play football in my day...

Yes, I think things will be better for my dd growing up (she already has a better childhood than I did, but that is down to my efforts rather than any societal / cultural change factors)

well, being a woman hasn't ever held me back, in that I came from a family of very educated women, at a time (1950s and 60s for my mum and her sisters) when women did not go on to higher education, in the main. I attended a girls' school from 7-17. I went to an RG uni. I entered the industry I wanted to (which is very female-dominated anyway), and have done as well as I have wanted to.

The whole social media thing is very very alarming, however - I have FB friends in their 20s who live out their whole lives on FB, in a way that is incomprehensible to me (I'm 43). God knows what it's like for teenager. Pornification - yes, and it's grim.

I would be really happy is DD is a lesbian. That says it all really, doesn't it?

Career wise I think the opportunities are greater but porn culture is terrifying. That said, possibly the whole thing will have done a massive reverse cycle by then and we'll all be guarding our privacy fiercely and being celibate. Apparently there's already a trend in LA to go back to old style phones.

Sunny, I would be going 'up the school' or at least phoning them. This is bullying and your DD (well, anyone) should not have to put up with it. It is quite heartening that his friends put him in his place.